It's as simple as life...

[bangbang___dead]

public post
This is true horror.

AN ABORTED baby survived for 80 minutes while hospital staff waited for it to die, a coroner's court in Darwin, Australia, was told yesterday.

The baby was unexpectedly born alive after birth was induced between 21 and 22 weeks of gestation. Greg Cavanagh, the coroner, said that there was a "responsibility vacuum

Comments

[humandays]

fetuses are not babies.

they do not have rights.

they are parts of the mothers body, and the mother has the right to terminate their existence.

if you are offended by this post, i don't care. :)

[bangbang___dead]

At the moment of conception, all the elements that make a human being are present. 23 chromosomes from the mother, and 23 chromosomes from the father.. thus, creating a new, unique human being. For a seed to grow, there must be life. For a 'fetus' to grow, it must be a human being. If it isn't human, why is it growing? It is living and feeling! <3

[humandays]

> At the moment of conception, all the elements that make a human being are present.

the same holds true for the moment after death. it takes more than elements.

> creating a new, unique human being.

circular argument.

> For a seed to grow, there must be life.

by that token, all parts of my body are separate living things from me. my legs grew, my skeleton lengthened.

> For a 'fetus' to grow, it must be a human being.

untrue. it is a part of the mother's body developing *into* a human being.

> If it isn't human, why is it growing?

it is not growing. the mother's body is growing it.

> It is living

circular argument.

> and feeling!

highly unlikely except possibly toward the end.

incidentally, if abortion WERE so terrible, why do something like 50% of all conceptions not end in live births? can't be so bad if god is practicing it constantly.

[bangbang___dead]

All in all, there is no essential difference between an unborn entity and a newborn baby. A baby's heart begins beating within 18 and 24 days. In addition, all living things have nerve endings, and through these they can feel pain. The aborted 'fetus' can feel pain throughout the abortion, thus making it living and growing, and capable of feeling.

[humandays]

sure there's difference. "baby" has a zillion positive emotional associations and connotations, which is why y'all use the word! most humans are semi-hard-wired to feel good things and want to care for a baby. thus you guys' insistence on the word - and my insistence in denying the word's application to a fetus.

> A baby's heart begins beating within 18 and 24 days

which does not make it a human being with rights.

> all living things have nerve endings

you're *way* wrong there. ever heard of bacteria? paramecia?

> and through these they can feel pain.

takes more than nerve endings. takes a sufficiently organized and conscious brain. (hypnotized or anesthetized adults don't perceive pain.)

> The aborted 'fetus' can feel pain throughout the abortion

false as stated, and even if true does not establish it as a living thing. if i cut off my arm, it sends huge pain signals to my brain. does not make it a living thing on its own.

[bangbang___dead]

I didn't plan on making my livejournal a debate board, so you can take your beliefs and thoughts elsewhere. Its great you have a good valid opinion, but I don't agree with you, and I made this post to open peoples eyes and get people to start thinking. Please refrain from any other comments; if you are truly interested in stating your prochoice beliefs, I'm sure there are several communities you can join and message boards. Thank you.

[humandays]

fair enough.

peace. :)

[humandays]

i've been asked by the owner of the journal not to carry the discussion further, so i cannot give you my answer. i'm sure you won't mind too much.

[ex_presently827]

there is no essential difference between an unborn entity and a newborn baby

1) a fetus is a part of a woman. the woman is her own guardian.

2) a baby is a stable gestalt. the mother is her own guardian and the baby's guardian.

if you can count, in the first situation there is one person, in the second situation there are two people.

since i'm sure you don't know, here is the definition of gestalt: a configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that it cannot be described merely as a sum of its parts.

you have successfully listed some parts of a fetus. but listing parts does not make it a whole; it doesn't automatically upgrade to a person just because it has some specific parts.