:D I do miss the fandom sometimes. You make a lot of sense, and I agree with a whole lot of it. NFA pissed me off. I was actually outraged that they killed off Lindsey.. it didnt make sense. Like, at all. And yes, it sure as hell was a cliffhanger. I was kinda over Angel after season 2, but I couldnt stop watching.
As for Buffy.. the show had its up and downs, and sparked ridiculous shipping wars(as you surely know), but it still overall kicked ass.
And I hate to admit it, but even though I was all about Buffy and Spike.. and still enjoy the eps and the fics... my appreciation for the Buffy/Angel relationship has grown dramatically over the years as Ive gotten older. Buffy ended in 2003.. when I was 15. So.. all the Bangel stuff happened before I was old enough to appreciate it, and all the spike stuff happened when I was *just* the right age to appreciate the constant nakedness, lol, with my innocentish 14yo eyes. I was always tolerant of the Bangel shippers, but it took a long time for me to understand, lol.
So yeah. Sorry, I tend to ramble on your posts. Buffy talk without the wank always makes me smile.
Chosen was actually pretty awesome. I dont follow the season 8 comics.. I prefer to leave it where it was, lol. NFA... no. Just no. Also dont read those comics.
Thanks for posting! Sorry to make your eyes bleed. :D
Thanks! I wish I could take credit for it.. but I found it on facebook, lol. I have been waiting for somebody to understand why it amused me so much, so I'm glad you commented, :)
I like your icon too, by the way. Simon Tam is indeed a sexy bitch, lol.
I know there are a lot more details about NFA that pisses me off more than Chosen. I at least get to see my heroine...still be heroine and still be that person that is so inherently Buffy even despite the crap of S6/7.
I think the reason I got so invested in ATS was because I didn't have BTVS any longer :( I had the same kind of expectations and that was a mistake. Buffy at its best was still SO much more intricate, affecting, emotional that ATS ever was (and those adjectives don't even begin to cover the beauty that was the golden years of BTVS).
I think, and this is a gross generalization but OF the people that I've had "discussions" with, B/A shippers were Buffy fans first and foremost, whereas (and I'm not saying you, not all of them but a LOT, maybe just the obnoxious ones lol) were Spike first lovers. So I think our biggest problem was how much Buffy had to be torn down, how she had to be in such a dark place for her to be in a relationship with Spike that it grated on us to no end.
In all honesty I would have not been so anti-Spuffy if I wasn't pushed to the limits by some...less than pleasant people. I feel like it could have worked but instead it the fandom became divisive. There was no doubt that they had a chemistry because it was sex and violence, but when it became apparent that it was ALL about power and violence...we weren't so happy. Could Spuffy have worked? For sure, but I don't think it can work if you ignore the past, and ignore the effect that B/A would have had on that relationship, or ignore Angel's history with Spike. I feel like...it could have been dealt with differently, it didn't have to be so destructive. And Spike getting a soul...it was just ridiculous and the last straw. I don't think I can EVER get over Joss saying that "giving the bitch what she deserves" meant please give me my soul. Sorry if that differs from you opinion, but I'd LOVE to discuss it :) (and if you think I'm wanking too much or like..I dunno different perspectives are of the good). I've come to peace with it, but also because I've met some less childish people and have read some really great fic, and I've found that I prefer the honesty that people bring to Spike. That he can be Buffy's friend and close companion, but after what they've been through I don't think either of them will ever let themselves be together like that again.
Ha, I don't read the comics either. If ANYONE knows me, I'm the last person to be homophobic...but Buffy and a chick? SERIOUSLY? She's just WAY too alpha to be a lesbian, and she likes men WAY too much..it's just such a stretch. IF they were going to do something they should have at LEAST gone the Faith root (they have so much history). It's just..I dunno it's a COMIC and it's a just such a mediocre medium for a show like BTVS.
NFA? What's the point? I come away feeling angrier after the finale, at least Chosen gave me some peace. I can look upon it fondly and remember that BTVS ended the best way it could have considering all the previous happenings.
(Don't worry you're talking to the MASTER RAMBLER!)
I made the same expectation mistake with Angel, but I too had to keep watching because I was already so tied up in it, and then because Buffy ened.
I actually kind of agree with your generalization. I have noticed that Bangel fans tend to be really loyal to Buffy herself, and like to see her as a strong, capable figure. And a whole lot of the Spuffy folk just love the porn. Personally, I always loved the potential in a buffy/spike relationship. It only started to really fall apart for me with the whole attempted rape and subsequent soul thing. I liked their relationship toward the end, and honestly, as much as I love Spike.. I wish he had stayed dead and not gone to Angel, because Chosen ended it in a way I believed.
I also agree with you that the whole Spuffy thing should have been handled better. And I hated the spike gets a soul crap. Why spend seasons building up the potential for him to choose to be a good man.. and then cop out and solve it by giving him a soul.
Sorry if I came across as thinking all discussions of opinions bothered me, or were "wank", I didnt mean that. I just meant the annoying, obnoxious, childish people who ruin the fun for the rest of us. Different perspectives are good, thats why I was never a basher on any particular ship. I mean, lol, if I had been, I would never have even looked at your journal because of your name! And then I wouldve missed out on all the interesting conversations I've been a part of over the years. Lordy lord.. can you believe Buffy ended six years ago! It seems impossible.
Yeah.. I really need to go to sleep! I have an 8am lab in the morning.. and its already past midnight, lol. Feel free to ramble away in a comment though. :D
Heh.. I'm remembering the Dracula episode.. Xander... somehting something something The Master...bator. Lol, good times.
Wow, firstly I just re-read my comment and I'm embarrassed by the amount of typos, so I apologize!
I know for me personally, I ship what makes Buffy happy, I care about her, and I'm NOT anti-Riley at all. Some B/Aers hate because he's not Angel, but was there anything really WRONG with him? If any of us had a boyfriend who loved us and doted on us, on top of being a hot soldier, we wouldn't be complaining right?
Here's what I see, there was a TON of growth between Buffy and Angel when they were together, as old as Angel was, he was still so..innocent in love. It wasn't easy for him, it was like...a shock to the system to fall that hard for someone after being alive for 240+ yrs. A lot of the Spuffers talk about Spuffy being the "mature" relationship, but it was emotionally stunted was it not? B/A started out initially as innocent, but I think (and this may be the fic talking) but there's a lot more darkness than they give it credit for. I think Buffy and Angel needed to be apart, to grow and change before they could truly make it work.
If we talk about the bad Spuffy, we think Spike probably came out a better person after the relationship (well...it could have been the soul having and all that), but...I don't necessarily think Buffy did. I don't know how much she did in B/A, but I do know that she had to grow up fast, and she learned a lot about herself and what she was willing to do, willing to sacrifice - which, I guess would be positive growth. Spike grew from the relationship, but to the detriment of Buffy I think.
So if I think they utilized that properly that if it was more a give and take. They had chemistry, they had a lot in common, but a part of me will always wonder whether the reason she was with him in the first place was because he reminded her of Angel...and that could be a great big wank, but who knows. The A/R...ugh, I don't know how to even begin. No matter whether he was a demon or night, they had NO RIGHT to even imply they could ever get back together, Spike had NO right to think he could get her back and that is me being overly protective of Buffy. It was something so much more violating on a personal level so much worse than anything he could have done. And as far as I'm concerned if you do that to the heroine on the show, you're dead to me. He SHOULD be dead and I was never the same after that, and no one should ever have taken that so lightly. EVER.
I think there is so much more to be said for Spike making his choice to be good - that's a really good point! In which case and we've all joked about it before, that then makes Harmony the most advanced vampire in the world by choosing to be good LMFAO. But that would have been SO interesting to explore, maybe touch on the fact that he seems to have so much more humanity in him than any other demon.
Oh! Haha, no I was worried you'd be thinking that I was like trying to lecture you or make you "become a B/Aer" like, well honestly some might and then everyone gets into a hissy over! I guess what I'm searching for is someone to tell me when I'm wanking and being full of crap or if what I'm saying might actually have some merit. I've considered changing my name a lot before but...now I realize (what you just said) was kind of the point, other than me being a steadfast B/Aer ;)
(I've got class @ 8am as well..looking forward to hearing your thoughts as well!)
Anyway, I definitely think you are right about both the growth and darkness of the Bangel relationship. I just didnt see it until after the fact. And the A/R thing.. just arg. I was willing to put up with almost anything with these crazy writers did.. but that was too much. And coupled with killing my Tara! Sad. I loved Tara.
For the record, I never thought you were wanky, lol. You definitely have merit, and most importantly, you can talk emphatically without resorting to childish crap. I think your lj name is a part of who you are and how you came to be your "lj self", if such a thing exists, lol, so you should change it only if you want to. :D
I don't even know what to think about the whole Tara debacle...I guess Joss needs to tear down anything happy and nice lol.
Ha, well I think I know that there are sometimes when you just HAVE to wank to make yourself feel better, and I think that was a big part of the shipper wars back in the day we were all being...so childish and then it started resorting to personal attacks, it was just messy (but still fun! It showed how passionate and how much we cared for the show, even though we might not have been as eloquent as we might have liked).
Lol, you might be right about that. I was just never in the middle of it, so I guess I dont understand what all the craziness was about. I didnt joing LJ till after Buffy ended.. so I missed most of the major crazy. But yeah, it does definitely show how much we love our shows.. and i guess there are times where it is necessary :)
Heh, Joss does tend to destroy happiness. Serenity anyone? Loved it, but lord does he love to make us suffer, lol.
Now off to do a take home test. Huzzah. *eye roll*
Well LJ wasn't that popular back in the day I don't think I REALLY got into LJ until mid-season ATS maybe even later than that. We were all on the boards - I think it's a lot different to have people waiting actively for a thread to update then on people's journals. I dunno it was just..different and more fun that way. Especially the WB boards I was never that active during the height of BTVS, but really became active when a) I was older b) I got my own computer heh. There might have been a UPN board for BTVS I'm sure, but I think after BTVS ended everyone banded together for a bit to get the 5th season of ATS. But...then arose more Angel vs. Spike issues, which were really B/A vs. Spuffy in notdisguise ha.
Lol, it totally was B/A vs Spuffy in notdisguise! I was never on the boards, :( And yeah, I didnt have my own comp until last summer.. so, that exlains alot.
Thanks for the good luck, lol. It was actually pretty hard.. well, time consuming, since the answers are in the book. But it just took a while.
Youre commenting has freaky timing. I went into my email.. and there was nothing from you. I deleted some junk mail.. and then your comment appeared! Lol, it was cool.
Having a comp makes all the diff, you don't have to explain to the rents that no, these nice strange internet friends aren't going to kill me. I really do NOT spend as much time as this reading fic and being a geek....:P
As for Buffy.. the show had its up and downs, and sparked ridiculous shipping wars(as you surely know), but it still overall kicked ass.
And I hate to admit it, but even though I was all about Buffy and Spike.. and still enjoy the eps and the fics... my appreciation for the Buffy/Angel relationship has grown dramatically over the years as Ive gotten older. Buffy ended in 2003.. when I was 15. So.. all the Bangel stuff happened before I was old enough to appreciate it, and all the spike stuff happened when I was *just* the right age to appreciate the constant nakedness, lol, with my innocentish 14yo eyes. I was always tolerant of the Bangel shippers, but it took a long time for me to understand, lol.
So yeah. Sorry, I tend to ramble on your posts. Buffy talk without the wank always makes me smile.
Chosen was actually pretty awesome. I dont follow the season 8 comics.. I prefer to leave it where it was, lol. NFA... no. Just no. Also dont read those comics.
Thanks for posting! Sorry to make your eyes bleed. :D
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I like your icon too, by the way. Simon Tam is indeed a sexy bitch, lol.
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I think the reason I got so invested in ATS was because I didn't have BTVS any longer :( I had the same kind of expectations and that was a mistake. Buffy at its best was still SO much more intricate, affecting, emotional that ATS ever was (and those adjectives don't even begin to cover the beauty that was the golden years of BTVS).
I think, and this is a gross generalization but OF the people that I've had "discussions" with, B/A shippers were Buffy fans first and foremost, whereas (and I'm not saying you, not all of them but a LOT, maybe just the obnoxious ones lol) were Spike first lovers. So I think our biggest problem was how much Buffy had to be torn down, how she had to be in such a dark place for her to be in a relationship with Spike that it grated on us to no end.
In all honesty I would have not been so anti-Spuffy if I wasn't pushed to the limits by some...less than pleasant people. I feel like it could have worked but instead it the fandom became divisive. There was no doubt that they had a chemistry because it was sex and violence, but when it became apparent that it was ALL about power and violence...we weren't so happy. Could Spuffy have worked? For sure, but I don't think it can work if you ignore the past, and ignore the effect that B/A would have had on that relationship, or ignore Angel's history with Spike. I feel like...it could have been dealt with differently, it didn't have to be so destructive. And Spike getting a soul...it was just ridiculous and the last straw. I don't think I can EVER get over Joss saying that "giving the bitch what she deserves" meant please give me my soul. Sorry if that differs from you opinion, but I'd LOVE to discuss it :) (and if you think I'm wanking too much or like..I dunno different perspectives are of the good). I've come to peace with it, but also because I've met some less childish people and have read some really great fic, and I've found that I prefer the honesty that people bring to Spike. That he can be Buffy's friend and close companion, but after what they've been through I don't think either of them will ever let themselves be together like that again.
Ha, I don't read the comics either. If ANYONE knows me, I'm the last person to be homophobic...but Buffy and a chick? SERIOUSLY? She's just WAY too alpha to be a lesbian, and she likes men WAY too much..it's just such a stretch. IF they were going to do something they should have at LEAST gone the Faith root (they have so much history). It's just..I dunno it's a COMIC and it's a just such a mediocre medium for a show like BTVS.
NFA? What's the point? I come away feeling angrier after the finale, at least Chosen gave me some peace. I can look upon it fondly and remember that BTVS ended the best way it could have considering all the previous happenings.
(Don't worry you're talking to the MASTER RAMBLER!)
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I actually kind of agree with your generalization. I have noticed that Bangel fans tend to be really loyal to Buffy herself, and like to see her as a strong, capable figure. And a whole lot of the Spuffy folk just love the porn. Personally, I always loved the potential in a buffy/spike relationship. It only started to really fall apart for me with the whole attempted rape and subsequent soul thing. I liked their relationship toward the end, and honestly, as much as I love Spike.. I wish he had stayed dead and not gone to Angel, because Chosen ended it in a way I believed.
I also agree with you that the whole Spuffy thing should have been handled better. And I hated the spike gets a soul crap. Why spend seasons building up the potential for him to choose to be a good man.. and then cop out and solve it by giving him a soul.
Sorry if I came across as thinking all discussions of opinions bothered me, or were "wank", I didnt mean that. I just meant the annoying, obnoxious, childish people who ruin the fun for the rest of us. Different perspectives are good, thats why I was never a basher on any particular ship. I mean, lol, if I had been, I would never have even looked at your journal because of your name! And then I wouldve missed out on all the interesting conversations I've been a part of over the years. Lordy lord.. can you believe Buffy ended six years ago! It seems impossible.
Yeah.. I really need to go to sleep! I have an 8am lab in the morning.. and its already past midnight, lol. Feel free to ramble away in a comment though. :D
Heh.. I'm remembering the Dracula episode.. Xander... somehting something something The Master...bator. Lol, good times.
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I know for me personally, I ship what makes Buffy happy, I care about her, and I'm NOT anti-Riley at all. Some B/Aers hate because he's not Angel, but was there anything really WRONG with him? If any of us had a boyfriend who loved us and doted on us, on top of being a hot soldier, we wouldn't be complaining right?
Here's what I see, there was a TON of growth between Buffy and Angel when they were together, as old as Angel was, he was still so..innocent in love. It wasn't easy for him, it was like...a shock to the system to fall that hard for someone after being alive for 240+ yrs. A lot of the Spuffers talk about Spuffy being the "mature" relationship, but it was emotionally stunted was it not? B/A started out initially as innocent, but I think (and this may be the fic talking) but there's a lot more darkness than they give it credit for. I think Buffy and Angel needed to be apart, to grow and change before they could truly make it work.
If we talk about the bad Spuffy, we think Spike probably came out a better person after the relationship (well...it could have been the soul having and all that), but...I don't necessarily think Buffy did. I don't know how much she did in B/A, but I do know that she had to grow up fast, and she learned a lot about herself and what she was willing to do, willing to sacrifice - which, I guess would be positive growth. Spike grew from the relationship, but to the detriment of Buffy I think.
So if I think they utilized that properly that if it was more a give and take. They had chemistry, they had a lot in common, but a part of me will always wonder whether the reason she was with him in the first place was because he reminded her of Angel...and that could be a great big wank, but who knows. The A/R...ugh, I don't know how to even begin. No matter whether he was a demon or night, they had NO RIGHT to even imply they could ever get back together, Spike had NO right to think he could get her back and that is me being overly protective of Buffy. It was something so much more violating on a personal level so much worse than anything he could have done. And as far as I'm concerned if you do that to the heroine on the show, you're dead to me. He SHOULD be dead and I was never the same after that, and no one should ever have taken that so lightly. EVER.
I think there is so much more to be said for Spike making his choice to be good - that's a really good point! In which case and we've all joked about it before, that then makes Harmony the most advanced vampire in the world by choosing to be good LMFAO. But that would have been SO interesting to explore, maybe touch on the fact that he seems to have so much more humanity in him than any other demon.
Oh! Haha, no I was worried you'd be thinking that I was like trying to lecture you or make you "become a B/Aer" like, well honestly some might and then everyone gets into a hissy over! I guess what I'm searching for is someone to tell me when I'm wanking and being full of crap or if what I'm saying might actually have some merit. I've considered changing my name a lot before but...now I realize (what you just said) was kind of the point, other than me being a steadfast B/Aer ;)
(I've got class @ 8am as well..looking forward to hearing your thoughts as well!)
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Anyway, I definitely think you are right about both the growth and darkness of the Bangel relationship. I just didnt see it until after the fact. And the A/R thing.. just arg. I was willing to put up with almost anything with these crazy writers did.. but that was too much. And coupled with killing my Tara! Sad. I loved Tara.
For the record, I never thought you were wanky, lol. You definitely have merit, and most importantly, you can talk emphatically without resorting to childish crap. I think your lj name is a part of who you are and how you came to be your "lj self", if such a thing exists, lol, so you should change it only if you want to. :D
And as for typos.. they dont count here, lol.
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Ha, well I think I know that there are sometimes when you just HAVE to wank to make yourself feel better, and I think that was a big part of the shipper wars back in the day we were all being...so childish and then it started resorting to personal attacks, it was just messy (but still fun! It showed how passionate and how much we cared for the show, even though we might not have been as eloquent as we might have liked).
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Heh, Joss does tend to destroy happiness. Serenity anyone? Loved it, but lord does he love to make us suffer, lol.
Now off to do a take home test. Huzzah. *eye roll*
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Well LJ wasn't that popular back in the day I don't think I REALLY got into LJ until mid-season ATS maybe even later than that. We were all on the boards - I think it's a lot different to have people waiting actively for a thread to update then on people's journals. I dunno it was just..different and more fun that way. Especially the WB boards I was never that active during the height of BTVS, but really became active when a) I was older b) I got my own computer heh. There might have been a UPN board for BTVS I'm sure, but I think after BTVS ended everyone banded together for a bit to get the 5th season of ATS. But...then arose more Angel vs. Spike issues, which were really B/A vs. Spuffy in notdisguise ha.
Erm...so good luck on the test? LOL.
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Thanks for the good luck, lol. It was actually pretty hard.. well, time consuming, since the answers are in the book. But it just took a while.
Youre commenting has freaky timing. I went into my email.. and there was nothing from you. I deleted some junk mail.. and then your comment appeared! Lol, it was cool.
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LOOK OUT YOUR WINDOW!!11!!
*runs*
Having a comp makes all the diff, you don't have to explain to the rents that no, these nice strange internet friends aren't going to kill me. I really do NOT spend as much time as this reading fic and being a geek....:P
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And nooo, we all dont spend nearly that much time on stuff like that.
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