The Boys are Back in Town

[azdak]

Woo-hoo, I've finished my vid! It's Thin Lizzy's The Boys are Back in Town, and of course it's Angel and Spike and Spike and Angel and William and Angelus(with a few brief appearances by other characters). I'm feeling smug about it, because it is SO MUCH BETTER than my first ever effort, and because I got very worried halfway through that the idea

Comments

[azdak]

How can you be so utterly judgmental about characters in a piece of fiction? It's a story, for cripes sake.

God, yes! And they don't seem to realise how unutterably boring the 'perfect' characters that they seem to want would be to watch. Plus, whoever it was who was saying that Anya had no interest in xander's personal issues because she interrupted him in OMWF to do 'Look at me, I'm dancin' crazy'... well, what can I say? That seems to me to be a borderline candidate for a mental institution.

I had some thoughts the other day about JW not shying away from "and then what", and how he seems to be primarily interested, in fact, in "and then what" and how that's been reflected in BtVS, AtS, and Firefly.

That sounds absolutely fascinating. I haven't seen Firefly yet (I'm downloading the eps, but it's literally taking months, and after my experience of seeing Buffy in a wonky order that's left me with a skewed perspective, I want to do Firefly right).
I could skip the Firefly sections, thogh, and then come back to them when I'd seen it, and I'd pay good money to read your Ats and Buffy ideas.

[teenes]

(I lied - decided that there's no way I could get on that plane so I turned around and now I'm back at work)

And they don't seem to realise how unutterably boring the 'perfect' characters that they seem to want would be to watch.

Hell, maybe they wouldn't find them boring, who knows? I agree, though. The great thing about Joss Whedon's characters is that they're most decisively flawed. On the flip side, most of his characters are also inherently decent, which has a tendency to create some interesting complexities in behavior. It's one of those things that I want to express over in the S4 thread about Spike and the other characters' treatment of him. I don't think they were "inventing" unbelievable reasons for the other characters to tolerate and occasionally defend him at all. I think their continuing tolerance of Spike's existence actually showed both their inherent decency, and perhaps the potential weakness that that decency may cause. For the most part Xander dislikes Spike and has good reason to, yet when push comes to shove, he will feel sorry for him or stand up for him or even save him b/c he's a good person, and b/c feelings aren't always rational. After rewatching bits of S2, I wonder sometimes how Willow can look at Angel the same way after he tricked her and threatened her in the hallway shortly after becoming Angelus - I figure it's the same reason she doesn't hold Spike's broken bottle in face incident against him, the same way so many fans seem to. It just drives me nuts sometimes, how completely black and white and compartmentalized some people look at things. There's no three strikes and you're out with them, there's no possibility for change, and there's certainly no possibility of redemption. I wonder why they even bother watching BtVS and AtS if they don't believe in the possibility of growth, change, and redemption? Or if they don't believe in the flawed individual?

Plus, whoever it was who was saying that Anya had no interest in xander's personal issues because she interrupted him in OMWF to do 'Look at me, I'm dancin' crazy'... well, what can I say? That seems to me to be a borderline candidate for a mental institution.

Yeah I know. That particular argument just completely left me flabbergasted. I started trying to formulate an argument against it but then realized what an exercise in futility it was. That person also doesn't seem to realize just how little Xander told the others about the visions - or how little those visions had to do with the real reason he decided to leave Anya at the altar.

As for the rest of it, maybe I'll write a post before I go get dinner, maybe not. I haven't fully fleshed out this thought yet, but then again I rarely flesh things out until I start writing about them.

Wish there was a way I could help you get the Firefly stuff sooner. Doesn't help that you're in a whole 'nother country! =)

[azdak]

(I lied - decided that there's no way I could get on that plane so I turned around and now I'm back at work)

Hee, I love your relaxed attitude to plane travel!For the most part Xander dislikes Spike and has good reason to, yet when push comes to shove, he will feel sorry for him or stand up for him or even save him b/c he's a good person, and b/c feelings aren't always rational.

There is that, although I also think it's striking that he's nicest to Spike immediately after Buffy has given him a public brush-off, and nastiest when Buffy has just showed some kind of preference for him. So we get him being deliberately nasty when Buffy insistes Spike accompnay them in the Winnebago in Spiral but then helping Spike light his ciggie right after Buffy has shown no interest in his injured hands. When Buffy says in Intervention that she hopes he's dusted Spike, he's positively empathetic, but when he sees them having a heart-to-heart after Buffy comes back from the dead, or in the graveyard in Normal Again, he's deliberately obnoxious. I think sexual jealousy plays a huge role in how Xander treats Spike, depending on whether he perceives him as a threat or not.

It just drives me nuts sometimes, how completely black and white and compartmentalized some people look at things.

Yup, moral complexity just doesn't exist for them. Anbd I guess those are the people who only like the early seasons, when life was simple and the good guys all wore white hats and Angel was a completely different person from Angelus.

[teenes]

I wasn't actually on the 5:45 flight =). I was hoping to get by on standby but I think I have little shot at that, and then I'd be stuck at the airport for 3 hours. Blech. May as well spend some time online, get a leisurely dinner, and then catch my original flight.

I think sexual jealousy plays a huge role in how Xander treats Spike, depending on whether he perceives him as a threat or not.

I go back and forth on that one. There is evidence, as you've pointed out, of it. Of course, conversely you could say that Xander feels bad for the outcast. So when Buffy's really mean to him, Xander feels a bit more sorry for him. In "Intervention", IMO Xander looks like he's already feeling sympathy for Spike before Buffy even says anything, just from carrying his beat-up body back to the crypt. It's just that Buffy's nastiness prompts him to speak up for him (if he's really sexually jealous, it's in his interest to go along with it when Buffy is mean to Spike, or at least say nothing, rather than defending him and causing the possibility that Buffy's estimation of Spike will go up, IMO). The way I saw it, Xander tended to be nasty to Spike by default, except in moments of weakness. Xander was also the one of them who had the most trouble with vampires and was the most unequivocally anti-vampire, IMO. The least likely one to open up to the idea of a "good" vampire.

The thing is, I think that Xander definitely had Buffy up on a pedestal most of the time, and that he put both her and Willow ahead of anything. Also, that he took a rather proprietarily jealous attitude towards other men in Buffy or Willow's lives. But...I'm not convinced that he was operating out of sexual jealousy throughout the show's run. There is evidence both ways about it, though. Certainly, Xander seemed to be most buddy-buddy with Spike when Buffy wasn't in the picture, be it when they're living together, or working together when Buffy is catatonic, or when she's dead...

Anbd I guess those are the people who only like the early seasons, when life was simple and the good guys all wore white hats and Angel was a completely different person from Angelus.

The thing is, while the early seasons were definitely more clear-cut morally than later seasons, I don't even think the early seasons were that simple. Season 2 did a lot to dispell that, IMO. That speech at the end of "Lie to Me", for instance. And, aside from Angel's temporary memory loss at the restoration of his soul, S2 didn't seem to make the Angel/Angelus distinction the way S4 AtS did, IMO. Angel was clearly being driven by his love for Buffy (and his hatred of the same love). Also, there was the mixed message of having Spike become such a sympathetic character there in his wheelchair, and then crossing the line to work together with Buffy. Plus, Xander's infamous "Big Lie".

But I'm not surprised if these people do think the early seasons were very black and white, missed the complexity, and loved it b/c of that. It's much easier to do in earlier seasons than in later ones. IMO, the complexity is there if you look for it, but also is easily ignored if you want to do that.

Re: Breaking in...

[teenes]

Yeah, in Becoming Pt 2? It's actually been a very hashed out point over on Television without Pity, with people weighing in on all sides of the debate (Xander was talking out of jealousy towards Angel, he was talking out of necessity, he didn't trust Buffy, etc etc). It was actually brought up again in Selfless in S7. I think JW has been asked about it before and he called it a military decision or something to that effect - Xander making an on-the-spot call, deciding that Buffy would be more effective if she didn't know.

[vandalisimo]

Yup, moral complexity just doesn't exist for them. Anbd I guess those are the people who only like the early seasons, when life was simple and the good guys all wore white hats and Angel was a completely different person from Angelus.

Well, fuck. I came over here to check out your vid and ended up getting incredibly offended. I don't hate the later seasons, but I continue to think that the early season were much better on practically all fronts. I also can't imagine thinking that they were not morally complex, especially seasons 2 and 3. I would think Lie to Me alone would set that idea aside. I can't help feeling that you must think I'm a mental midget or something. Am I overreacting or completely misreading you here?

[azdak]

Er, inasmuch as the desire to see things in black and white isn't something I would ever ascribe to you, you're misreading me. Nor would I ever equate preferring the early seasons with being a mental midget. It's just that those particular people who were slagging off S6 and 7, on the grounds that Spike, Willow and Anya should never have been tolerated, are also those who like the early Scooby gang and honestly seem to overlook the moral complexities which are indeed present in the early seasons. The discussion arose in reaction to some very specific comments, none of which were made by you, nor would I ever expect comments like that to be made by you, and I'm sorry if you somehow felt implicated.

[vandalisimo]

Got you. It just seemed like a very general comment to me and it isn't the first time I've heard it, so I am somewhat sensitive to it. Plus humidity makes me prickly. I guess it's just kind of beyond me how anyone could see the first seasons in black and white. Especially in Season 3 where Buffy makes, what I consider to be, the most morally questionable decision that she ever makes in deciding that it is acceptable to kill Faith and feed her to her boyfriend.

Anyway, I know how the ham sandwich crowd can be quite frustrating. I actually agree with a lot of the negative points being made about S7, especially about Chosen, but I certainly understand how it can be frustrating when certain people will never give an inch on anything. I mean, they've been saying the same thing for almost a year at this point. Personally, I love Chosen because I don't think too hard about the logistics in it. It's the final episode of a show that I loved for seven great years and I just refuse to get bogged down in the hate. That said, I think the writing certainly needed some help wrt the battle, Buffy's plan, the amulet and the part it played. I just choose to ignore it. I know what they were going for, I just don't really think they got there.

[azdak]

I guess it's just kind of beyond me how anyone could see the first seasons in black and white.

I don't know what it is about what you so aptly call the 'ham sandwich' crowd that they are utterly unforgiving of the tiniest slip-up post-S3, but don't pick up any of the moral greyness prior to that. Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that they're making moral judgements - maybe it isn't moral complexity they dislike but emotional complexity, so that if anyone ever says or does anything remotely nasty to Xander, that's it, they should never be tolerated by any one of the Scoobies ever again. Perhaps it's the way the show started showing that nice people can have nasty traits, whilst nasty people can have nice ones that upsets them.

Personally, I love Chosen because I don't think too hard about the logistics in it. It's the final episode of a show that I loved for seven great years and I just refuse to get bogged down in the hate.

I don't see what people get out of the hate.Yah, the episode (and the season) had some major flaws (mostly, as you say, ones of plotting) ut why try your hardest to look for the bad things? Why even go so far as to *invent* bad things, just so you can hate the show even more? 'Buffy raped millions of girls so she could have an easy life.' Puh-lease...