*grins* Hey, I thought it was pretty deep. And it means that Sirius at least has a motive for acting the way he does towards Snape that has nothing really to do with Snape himself. Whereas James...
I think most of what we see from Sirius is rebellion. Both in his teen years and in the events from POA through OotP. And like just about anyone who does some rebelling, he's taken it to extremes on several occasions. I think the way he is with Snape is just one of those examples where he's taken it to an extreme. It's not that he and Snape would have fuzzy happy love, love feelings for each other if he weren't trying so hard to rebel from the way his parents were so obviously trying to bring him up, but I think their insistance that he conform to pureblood ways and keep in line with their modes of thinking really instigated him to rebel even harder, and like you said, prove to himself and to everyone else that he wasn't like Snape or his ilk.
Doesn't make the way he treated Snape right, but I think Snape gave as good as he got, too. Particularly in his sniping comments to Sirius in OotP. It's not like Snape is some poor, helpless creature they're picking on. Granted, the man doesn't deserve it either, but it's not like theirs was an uneven playing ground, you know?
And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentances and everything.avalonsJune 23 2003, 09:14:56 UTC
*grins* Thanks.
In my mind I've always thought of Sirius as kind of ADHD. The whole not thinking of the consequences of his actions, and taking things to an extreme level. Not necessarily that he actually has AdHd it just reminds me of it.
What they did to Snape in that memory really freaked me. Probably because I've been there. And while Snape did give as good as he got he seemed more focused on causing them physical pain, while they humiliated him in a way that it doesn't surprise me that he carries that around as an adult.
And coming from the place where Sirius is distancing himself from dark wizards you can see why he does it, but James is just an ass.
Now also if I'm remembering correctly; someone, I can't remember if it was Sirius or Remus, told Harry that it was James and Snape who hated each other on first site. Which mean it's quite possible that in a desire to emulate his friend, who he admired, and who's family took him in, he embraced the tormenting of Snape.
He got to send his message of dislike of anything dark, to distance himself from his own family, and at the same time impress his friend. It's quite possible that Sirius wasn't the leader everyone supposes him to be. He's not a follower like Pettigrew, but James is definitely top dog.
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentances and everything.skylark97June 23 2003, 10:48:37 UTC
In my mind I've always thought of Sirius as kind of ADHD. The whole not thinking of the consequences of his actions, and taking things to an extreme level.
I can see it in parts, but he does have his rationalness to him too. I mean, he did make it an entire summer in that house without ever stepping foot outside. He knows the danger, understands the importance of not being seen and the like. But I also think that the pressure of having no one to talk to, no way to get out...it had to have been horribly suffocating. Even more so since that house is the complete embodiment of all the things he probably didn't like about himself and his entire childhood. I mean, it had to have been really extreme if he went as far as to actually run away from home.
What they did to Snape in that memory really freaked me.
Me too, for a lot of reasons. Snape's reaction was so much like what you'd expect from kids of the Columbine shooters ilk. He doesn't retaliate by humiliating James in return (which probably would have been much more effective since his ego was James's weak point) but instead goes for blood. And James was an ass. And now I'm really curious as to what the actual history is between James and Snape, because there's something there that not even Remus and Sirius seemed to be aware of.
Which mean it's quite possible that in a desire to emulate his friend, who he admired, and who's family took him in, he embraced the tormenting of Snape.
I <3 you. I <3 that logic. ^__^
Actually, I'm kind of dreading what fandom is going to do with this memory. Methinks I'm just going to have to give up reading Snape fics. And if ever there was a book that made Harry/Snape seem terribly unrealistic, this was it.
Snape does to Harry what James did to him, but the difference with Harry is that he and Snape are not on an even playing field. Snape has all the authority and the power, while Harry does not. Not to mention that Harry is not his father, and from what we've seen of Snape, the man doesn't see it that way. Even Sirius, who I will agree mixes James and Harry up sometimes, has a better grasp on who Harry is. Sirius at least admits that Harry's not a child, and their situations just paralleled each other too closely at points for me to think that Sirius wouldn't see Harry for himself. That, and in the instances where Sirius does bring up Harry not being James, it's done out of hurt and where he's lashing out at Harry much the same way that Harry lashes out at Ron and Hermione over things that aren't their fault.
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.avalonsJune 23 2003, 11:24:47 UTC
Oh, he definitely has the ability to be rational, but I think it detiorated as he became more and more depressed at being stuck in the hell house, and especially since he lost his sense of usefulness to the order.
I'm really curious as to what the actual history is between James and Snape
As I am. The implied level of hatred doesn't make sense to me without there being something else, and then the fact that we know that even though they loathed each other deeply James still saved him from Remus. *ponders*
I <3 you. I <3 that logic
Thanks I shall have to glomp you now. *glomps*
I'm kind of dreading what fandom is going to do with this memory
The overflow of WretchedAbused!Snape will be sickening no doubt. Although I never though his life was all that great. You just don't have those sorts of issues without having some serious shit in your life.
I don't think though that the possiblities for Snape/Harry are completely killed at all though. During the lessons Snape seemed genuinely curious about the memories Harry had of being picked on, and I really believe he might be changing his opinions of Harry. Not that he'd tell Harry that. Sneaking into Snape's pensieve though was not Harry's smartest move in the trust department.
And yes Snape abuses his power over Harry horribly, but I think there is still room for understanding between them at some point.
I'll have to think more about that since I haven't really considered it too much yet. I've been focused so much on the Snape/Sirius/James dynamic.
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.skylark97June 23 2003, 11:42:52 UTC
I don't think though that the possiblities for Snape/Harry are completely killed at all though.
Hmm, good *good* points. I'm going to have to think on that (and pray that most HP/SS writers are too...I think what I'm dreading more is Wretchedabused!Snape paired with villianized!James'n'Sirius, least of all because they would be 2-D interps of their 3-D (well, maybe with the expection of James) counterparts in the book.) Snape and Harry's interactions are interesting though, because they are so messed up. And, I am glad that Dumbledore admited he'd made a mistake in assigning Snape to teach Harry occumalncy (or however you spell that...) because they already had a crappy teacher/student relationship before this, and Snape's methods in teaching Potions don't work on Harry, and I'm pretty baffled that Dumbledore thought his teaching methods for another subject would somehow miraculously work better. Particularly when no one would explain to Harry *why* it was important. That killed me. Everyone kept saying, "You need to learn this, it's important." but none of them would explain to him why it was so bloody important.
But you're right, Snape was given a lot of insight into Harry's own traumatized childhood. Hopefully, like you said, there is the hope that Snape will maybe take what he's been given and see that Harry is a lot different person than his father.
Gotta start pondering the Remus angles too.
Ugh. His was actually one of the few characterizations that I was disappointed with. He seemed so...flat. He's too perfect. He never loses his temper, he never seems overly upset, and he's always the voice of calm reason. The most he had fault with was not making James stop in that memory, and even then he was still doing everything 'right'. Frankly, I'm a bit creeped out by him and he's fast becoming one of my least favorite canon characters. Of course, I read most of the book from the standpoint of a fanfic writer, so maybe I should just hush up. *sweatdrops* But still...*makes a face*
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.avalonsJune 23 2003, 11:53:57 UTC
Badfic is a given we can only hope to avoid it.
I too thought the fact that no one told Harry why he needed to learn this was by far the single most stupid move on anyones part in the whole book.
Once again it was "lets protect him from the truth." Bit them all on the ass didn't it?
Remus's characterization does seem flat, but I don't think it actually is. If that makes sense. It's just with him everything is extrapolation. Small little bits of canon, and then really trying to figure out what's going on with him.
The things that so far have me wondering are: In Snape's memory he jokes about his being a werewolf, but when Sirius complains that he wishes it were full moon Remus's reply is very curt.
I also wonder if it was his idea to confront the Dursley's at the end of the book. Stepping in for Sirius maybe. I'll definitely have to think more about it, and ya know, read the book again. *laughs*
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.skylark97June 23 2003, 12:09:52 UTC
Remus's characterization does seem flat, but I don't think it actually is. If that makes sense. It's just with him everything is extrapolation.
Hmm, I think I can see what you're saying. And hopefully, he will have a much more involved/bigger part in the next book. I mean, he has as much reason to be tragic as Harry does, I guess it just bothers me that we never got to see his reaction to Sirius's death. (Granted, that would have only made the book *that* much longer) But I guess I really wanted to know how Remus reacted and how he felt, and my curiousity was not appeased. I suppose that's what fanfiction is for though, huh. ^-^;;
Stepping in for Sirius maybe.
Hmm, I can see him doing it, and I can really see what you're saying there too, because I think you're right. I also think though, that he's going to have to be careful how he goes about dealing with Harry, because something makes me think that if he's too blatant about stepping into Sirius's shoes or Sirius's place, Harry's reaction will not be pretty. Whether Sirius saw Harry as Harry or Harry as James or Harry as a mixture of both Harry and James, Sirius was important to Harry. Really important as his reactions in Dumbledore's even slightly veiled insinuation that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher led to his own downfall and the fact the he jumped to save Sirius so quickly and that Voldemort knew that Harry's love for Sirius was his weak spot.
Granted, Remus will probably manage to slide in perfectly there too, but he's going to have to be careful about it, because I don't think Harry would take kindly to the idea that Remus is trying to replace Sirius or take over in Sirius's place.
(Er, and I should probably apologize, because I know I'm probably getting on to be about boarder line annoying here...sometimes I really do get a little too into playing devil's advocate and saying what I know down deep is fairly contraversial. (La, one of these days, I really should learn how to spell. -_-;;) So, sorry if I'm really getting irritating. *sweatdrops*)
Er, talking about run on sentences and everything.skylark97June 23 2003, 12:15:14 UTC
Really important as his reactions in Dumbledore's even slightly veiled insinuation that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher led to his own downfall and the fact the he jumped to save Sirius so quickly and that Voldemort knew that Harry's love for Sirius was his weak spot.
What I tried to say there and somehow managed to grammatically kill: Sirius was really important to Harry, and you can see that in the way he reacted to Dumbledore's veiled insinuation that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher led to his own downfall. You can also see Harry's love for Sirius in the fact that Voldemort knew Sirius was his weak point. It's almost reminiscent of the way that Ron was taken in GOF for that one task. Harry cares deeply for Sirius, which is part of the reason he feels so guilty and part of the reason he reacts so violently in Dumbledore's office. Sirius's death is the final straw. He could put up with a lot, but that just pushed him way over the top, IMO. (Although, there were a lot of other issues and feelings mixing around in there...)
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.avalonsJune 23 2003, 12:28:22 UTC
I think he's going to very important in the next book. I think the main reason we didn't get to see his reaction is because Harry didn't. Remus held it together enough to support Harry when he needed it, and did his grieving in private.
As I was saying to picklepuss somewhere below I think his and Harry's future relationship could be potentially fraught with problems. Not the least of which is Remus's distance and seeming unavailableness emotionally. Add to that Harry's somewhat volatile emotions of late and there's much potential for drama.
Not to say that it won't be good for both of them. I think it would do them both a world of good.
Don't worry you're not being annoying even a teensy bit. I love a good discussion and love trying to see from all the different angles there are.
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.skylark97June 23 2003, 12:48:55 UTC
Remus's distance and seeming unavailableness emotionally
*That's* it! *glomps you* I was having such a hard time trying to figure out why it was that Remus's non-reaction (or our not seeing it) was giving me so many qualms, and this was it. We never get a peak at what he's feeling, really. He's either calming someone else down, or rationally attacking a problem, and it bothers me that I don't get a chance to see him emotional, whether it's crying or blowing up or even something milder, because I don't know how to take him then...Is he not affected at all? I mean, this does have to hurt him horribly too, right? But if it does, if any of the situations do, you almost never see it...
and did his grieving in private.
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Don't know that it's particularly healthy...but then again he strikes me as a real bottler when it comes to what he's feeling too. Which ties back to the fact that you never get to see his true emotional face in the books...I think my main problem is that I have a hard time trusting people who are emotionally ambigious/emotionally dishonest. So there is a personal bias playing in to how I'm seeing him, which I think I needed to acknowledge too...
Hmm...but I think you just helped me see that emotionally unavailable does not equal a reason to be compeltely mistrustful of a person, which was the way I was starting to lean. Although, if this was the way he was before the Potter's died...I can see why people might have gotten leery after a while and wrongly suspected him. (Yeah, I think I'm so far into my own personal biases that it doesn't make much sense anymore...^-^;;)
Re: And she rambles, on and on and on. Run on sentences and everything.avalonsJune 23 2003, 13:09:14 UTC
I don't think what Remus does is healthy at all, but considering he's a werewolf it probably behooves him to not lose him temper.
Since we know so little of who he is and his backround it's quite possible he was taught to keep himself in check in all things. Or the loss of all of his friends in one night had an extrememly traumatic affect on him making him go into a permanent protective mode with himself.
It could even be his own naturally somewhat shy nature. Or a combination of all of it. I'm really hoping we get more information on him in the next book. Until then though fanfic shall have to keep us going as we put forth our own pet theories.
I think most of what we see from Sirius is rebellion. Both in his teen years and in the events from POA through OotP. And like just about anyone who does some rebelling, he's taken it to extremes on several occasions. I think the way he is with Snape is just one of those examples where he's taken it to an extreme. It's not that he and Snape would have fuzzy happy love, love feelings for each other if he weren't trying so hard to rebel from the way his parents were so obviously trying to bring him up, but I think their insistance that he conform to pureblood ways and keep in line with their modes of thinking really instigated him to rebel even harder, and like you said, prove to himself and to everyone else that he wasn't like Snape or his ilk.
Doesn't make the way he treated Snape right, but I think Snape gave as good as he got, too. Particularly in his sniping comments to Sirius in OotP. It's not like Snape is some poor, helpless creature they're picking on. Granted, the man doesn't deserve it either, but it's not like theirs was an uneven playing ground, you know?
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In my mind I've always thought of Sirius as kind of ADHD. The whole not thinking of the consequences of his actions, and taking things to an extreme level. Not necessarily that he actually has AdHd it just reminds me of it.
What they did to Snape in that memory really freaked me. Probably because I've been there. And while Snape did give as good as he got he seemed more focused on causing them physical pain, while they humiliated him in a way that it doesn't surprise me that he carries that around as an adult.
And coming from the place where Sirius is distancing himself from dark wizards you can see why he does it, but James is just an ass.
Now also if I'm remembering correctly; someone, I can't remember if it was Sirius or Remus, told Harry that it was James and Snape who hated each other on first site. Which mean it's quite possible that in a desire to emulate his friend, who he admired, and who's family took him in, he embraced the tormenting of Snape.
He got to send his message of dislike of anything dark, to distance himself from his own family, and at the same time impress his friend. It's quite possible that Sirius wasn't the leader everyone supposes him to be. He's not a follower like Pettigrew, but James is definitely top dog.
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I can see it in parts, but he does have his rationalness to him too. I mean, he did make it an entire summer in that house without ever stepping foot outside. He knows the danger, understands the importance of not being seen and the like. But I also think that the pressure of having no one to talk to, no way to get out...it had to have been horribly suffocating. Even more so since that house is the complete embodiment of all the things he probably didn't like about himself and his entire childhood. I mean, it had to have been really extreme if he went as far as to actually run away from home.
What they did to Snape in that memory really freaked me.
Me too, for a lot of reasons. Snape's reaction was so much like what you'd expect from kids of the Columbine shooters ilk. He doesn't retaliate by humiliating James in return (which probably would have been much more effective since his ego was James's weak point) but instead goes for blood. And James was an ass. And now I'm really curious as to what the actual history is between James and Snape, because there's something there that not even Remus and Sirius seemed to be aware of.
Which mean it's quite possible that in a desire to emulate his friend, who he admired, and who's family took him in, he embraced the tormenting of Snape.
I <3 you. I <3 that logic. ^__^
Actually, I'm kind of dreading what fandom is going to do with this memory. Methinks I'm just going to have to give up reading Snape fics. And if ever there was a book that made Harry/Snape seem terribly unrealistic, this was it.
Snape does to Harry what James did to him, but the difference with Harry is that he and Snape are not on an even playing field. Snape has all the authority and the power, while Harry does not. Not to mention that Harry is not his father, and from what we've seen of Snape, the man doesn't see it that way. Even Sirius, who I will agree mixes James and Harry up sometimes, has a better grasp on who Harry is. Sirius at least admits that Harry's not a child, and their situations just paralleled each other too closely at points for me to think that Sirius wouldn't see Harry for himself. That, and in the instances where Sirius does bring up Harry not being James, it's done out of hurt and where he's lashing out at Harry much the same way that Harry lashes out at Ron and Hermione over things that aren't their fault.
Lord...Gyah, sorry, you got me going too. ^-^;;
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I'm really curious as to what the actual history is between James and Snape
As I am. The implied level of hatred doesn't make sense to me without there being something else, and then the fact that we know that even though they loathed each other deeply James still saved him from Remus. *ponders*
I <3 you. I <3 that logic
Thanks I shall have to glomp you now. *glomps*
I'm kind of dreading what fandom is going to do with this memory
The overflow of WretchedAbused!Snape will be sickening no doubt. Although I never though his life was all that great. You just don't have those sorts of issues without having some serious shit in your life.
I don't think though that the possiblities for Snape/Harry are completely killed at all though. During the lessons Snape seemed genuinely curious about the memories Harry had of being picked on, and I really believe he might be changing his opinions of Harry. Not that he'd tell Harry that. Sneaking into Snape's pensieve though was not Harry's smartest move in the trust department.
And yes Snape abuses his power over Harry horribly, but I think there is still room for understanding between them at some point.
I'll have to think more about that since I haven't really considered it too much yet. I've been focused so much on the Snape/Sirius/James dynamic.
Gotta start pondering the Remus angles too.
Lord...Gyah, sorry, you got me going too
Don't apologize, I'm having such fun.
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Hmm, good *good* points. I'm going to have to think on that (and pray that most HP/SS writers are too...I think what I'm dreading more is Wretchedabused!Snape paired with villianized!James'n'Sirius, least of all because they would be 2-D interps of their 3-D (well, maybe with the expection of James) counterparts in the book.) Snape and Harry's interactions are interesting though, because they are so messed up. And, I am glad that Dumbledore admited he'd made a mistake in assigning Snape to teach Harry occumalncy (or however you spell that...) because they already had a crappy teacher/student relationship before this, and Snape's methods in teaching Potions don't work on Harry, and I'm pretty baffled that Dumbledore thought his teaching methods for another subject would somehow miraculously work better. Particularly when no one would explain to Harry *why* it was important. That killed me. Everyone kept saying, "You need to learn this, it's important." but none of them would explain to him why it was so bloody important.
But you're right, Snape was given a lot of insight into Harry's own traumatized childhood. Hopefully, like you said, there is the hope that Snape will maybe take what he's been given and see that Harry is a lot different person than his father.
Gotta start pondering the Remus angles too.
Ugh. His was actually one of the few characterizations that I was disappointed with. He seemed so...flat. He's too perfect. He never loses his temper, he never seems overly upset, and he's always the voice of calm reason. The most he had fault with was not making James stop in that memory, and even then he was still doing everything 'right'. Frankly, I'm a bit creeped out by him and he's fast becoming one of my least favorite canon characters. Of course, I read most of the book from the standpoint of a fanfic writer, so maybe I should just hush up. *sweatdrops* But still...*makes a face*
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I too thought the fact that no one told Harry why he needed to learn this was by far the single most stupid move on anyones part in the whole book.
Once again it was "lets protect him from the truth." Bit them all on the ass didn't it?
Remus's characterization does seem flat, but I don't think it actually is. If that makes sense. It's just with him everything is extrapolation. Small little bits of canon, and then really trying to figure out what's going on with him.
The things that so far have me wondering are: In Snape's memory he jokes about his being a werewolf, but when Sirius complains that he wishes it were full moon Remus's reply is very curt.
I also wonder if it was his idea to confront the Dursley's at the end of the book. Stepping in for Sirius maybe. I'll definitely have to think more about it, and ya know, read the book again. *laughs*
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Hmm, I think I can see what you're saying. And hopefully, he will have a much more involved/bigger part in the next book. I mean, he has as much reason to be tragic as Harry does, I guess it just bothers me that we never got to see his reaction to Sirius's death. (Granted, that would have only made the book *that* much longer) But I guess I really wanted to know how Remus reacted and how he felt, and my curiousity was not appeased. I suppose that's what fanfiction is for though, huh. ^-^;;
Stepping in for Sirius maybe.
Hmm, I can see him doing it, and I can really see what you're saying there too, because I think you're right. I also think though, that he's going to have to be careful how he goes about dealing with Harry, because something makes me think that if he's too blatant about stepping into Sirius's shoes or Sirius's place, Harry's reaction will not be pretty. Whether Sirius saw Harry as Harry or Harry as James or Harry as a mixture of both Harry and James, Sirius was important to Harry. Really important as his reactions in Dumbledore's even slightly veiled insinuation that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher led to his own downfall and the fact the he jumped to save Sirius so quickly and that Voldemort knew that Harry's love for Sirius was his weak spot.
Granted, Remus will probably manage to slide in perfectly there too, but he's going to have to be careful about it, because I don't think Harry would take kindly to the idea that Remus is trying to replace Sirius or take over in Sirius's place.
(Er, and I should probably apologize, because I know I'm probably getting on to be about boarder line annoying here...sometimes I really do get a little too into playing devil's advocate and saying what I know down deep is fairly contraversial. (La, one of these days, I really should learn how to spell. -_-;;) So, sorry if I'm really getting irritating. *sweatdrops*)
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What I tried to say there and somehow managed to grammatically kill: Sirius was really important to Harry, and you can see that in the way he reacted to Dumbledore's veiled insinuation that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher led to his own downfall. You can also see Harry's love for Sirius in the fact that Voldemort knew Sirius was his weak point. It's almost reminiscent of the way that Ron was taken in GOF for that one task. Harry cares deeply for Sirius, which is part of the reason he feels so guilty and part of the reason he reacts so violently in Dumbledore's office. Sirius's death is the final straw. He could put up with a lot, but that just pushed him way over the top, IMO. (Although, there were a lot of other issues and feelings mixing around in there...)
Gyah, I'm shutting up. Really. ^-^;;;
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I also wanted to say thanks for all the great discussion today, and all the great things you brought up. Serious brain food.
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As I was saying to picklepuss somewhere below I think his and Harry's future relationship could be potentially fraught with problems. Not the least of which is Remus's distance and seeming unavailableness emotionally. Add to that Harry's somewhat volatile emotions of late and there's much potential for drama.
Not to say that it won't be good for both of them. I think it would do them both a world of good.
Don't worry you're not being annoying even a teensy bit. I love a good discussion and love trying to see from all the different angles there are.
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*That's* it! *glomps you* I was having such a hard time trying to figure out why it was that Remus's non-reaction (or our not seeing it) was giving me so many qualms, and this was it. We never get a peak at what he's feeling, really. He's either calming someone else down, or rationally attacking a problem, and it bothers me that I don't get a chance to see him emotional, whether it's crying or blowing up or even something milder, because I don't know how to take him then...Is he not affected at all? I mean, this does have to hurt him horribly too, right? But if it does, if any of the situations do, you almost never see it...
and did his grieving in private.
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Don't know that it's particularly healthy...but then again he strikes me as a real bottler when it comes to what he's feeling too. Which ties back to the fact that you never get to see his true emotional face in the books...I think my main problem is that I have a hard time trusting people who are emotionally ambigious/emotionally dishonest. So there is a personal bias playing in to how I'm seeing him, which I think I needed to acknowledge too...
Hmm...but I think you just helped me see that emotionally unavailable does not equal a reason to be compeltely mistrustful of a person, which was the way I was starting to lean. Although, if this was the way he was before the Potter's died...I can see why people might have gotten leery after a while and wrongly suspected him. (Yeah, I think I'm so far into my own personal biases that it doesn't make much sense anymore...^-^;;)
I think it would do them both a world of good.
I think you've got a really good point there. :)
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Since we know so little of who he is and his backround it's quite possible he was taught to keep himself in check in all things. Or the loss of all of his friends in one night had an extrememly traumatic affect on him making him go into a permanent protective mode with himself.
It could even be his own naturally somewhat shy nature. Or a combination of all of it. I'm really hoping we get more information on him in the next book. Until then though fanfic shall have to keep us going as we put forth our own pet theories.
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