Especially on the first two points. I've never gotten why Tonks can be considered a Mary Sue just because she's got special powers and she's related to one of the main characters. I mean, for one thing, the story takes place in a magical world, so how on Earth can special powers be Mary Sue-ish? Secondly, if she didn't have any sort of connection to main characters, there wouldn't really be a reason for her to be there. She's got to be related to someone, whether as a colleague, lover, old friend, cousin, etc. to actually be a part of the story
( ... )
Seriously, I think fandom projects a lot of RL issues onto the HP characters.
Oh, absolutely. And while that can produce good results (I read an amusing fic mocking the "PC mania"), it can also mean that people forget Tonks isn't necessarily the annoying Cheerleader that drove them nuts in tenth grade.
people forget Tonks isn't necessarily the annoying Cheerleader that drove them nuts in tenth grade
Absolutely. I don't really mind much if people say that they are annoyed by a character because the character reminds them of a person in real life, but I'm sick of said characters being turned into either evil traitors or Mary Sues. For example, personally I'm always a bit annoyed with Molly because I've had issues with over-protective parents in my life, but I'd never claim that she's a badly written character, a bad mother, evil, a Mary Sue, etc. It just isn't logical.
I've been annoyed by Molly because she's supposed to be "one of the good guys," but she constantly carped on Fleur. Glad she finally realized she was behaving badly.
In fairness, this one is often debated. I think there's two possibilities: Either JK Rowling is extremely vain and makes Tonks the same way, or, as even Hermione hinted, there was more to it.
What I was saying was - either JK Rowling thinks people fall over like that over crushes (not even boyfriends, crushes), or Tonks and Remus had something going on that was deeper than a crush, and that Sirius's death and the war were also factors. I think the latter is more likely.
I've always been a bit confused over why anyone thought it was a just a crush, of even just a casual relationship. They had apparently discussed marriage more than once, and obviously had deep feelings for each other.
Anyway, I agree that it was more likely a culmination of factors. Remus' actions would have likely devastated Tonks under any circumstances, but the reason they made her quite so depressed during HBP was that she was already dealing with her cousin's death and fighting in the war. R/T just pushed her over the edge.
I've always been a bit confused over why anyone thought it was a just a crush, of even just a casual relationship. They had apparently discussed marriage more than once, and obviously had deep feelings for each other.
I suppose if you're more familiar with crushes than deeper relationships, that's how you see it? That would be a reasonable pop-psychology explanation for some of the teenage fangirls who are so vociferous on the subject, anyway. :)
But no, you're right, JKR's intention seems to have been that they have both genuinely fallen for the other. I'm not sure quite when she's saying the relationship started given the sequence of events, but that's a separate issue and one we're not likely to get more than a paragraph of explanation of in book 7, if that! Sometime towards the end of OotP seems like a reasonable shot.
Thanks, well-written. I really like Tonks as a character and it makes me sad when people automatically dismiss her as a 'Sue.
But I somehow think Dumbledore would've approved 100%.
I agree. Even like McGonagall says, Dumbledore would've been happiest to know there was a little bit more love in the world. That's one of my favorite quotes from the book.
5. "Only a twelve year old likes the idea of pink or purple hair."
Bad argument! I tried to make my hair purple this summer, and I just turned twenty in October. (It didn't work, by the way, but I probably should have expected that. I was trying to dye it with Kool-Aid.)
Even like McGonagall says, Dumbledore would've been happiest to know there was a little bit more love in the world. That's one of my favorite quotes from the book.
Mine too. :)
I tried to make my hair purple this summer, and I just turned twenty in October.
Go you! I'm not daring enough, but I think purple hair is cool.
1.2 Her relation to Sirius is also a good way to just nicely compact a lot of exposition on family in the wizarding world and the Blacks. 2. Hell, even is it was just whining and mopeyness over love, I still think she rocks. Why can't she be mopy ober love? As lots of the sane fen have pointed out, she still manages to do her job and be responsible, so it's not like it affects her too much, and it makes her realistic. Lots and lots of girls get all mopey and iffy on identity cause of boys, even *gasp* cool, strong, kick ass, roxin ones like Tonks. It makes her relatable and approachable and yeah, real. 5. *Raises hand* I'm 18 and I'd dye my hair blue if I wasn't afraid of trying to land an internship or research position with blue hair.
You are not allowed to get kicked out of school, since I can't think of any yeshiva that'll take a girl with blue or purple or whatever hair, except ones with even Jappier kids. On second thought, what's the quality of your zoned public school?
[re the confrontation with Remus at Bill's bedside] Again, there's no denying it wasn't the right place or time.
I'll deny it. It worked, therefore it was the right place and the right time. And, as laverinthpoints out, the public nature of the scene may have been important in why it worked.
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Especially on the first two points. I've never gotten why Tonks can be considered a Mary Sue just because she's got special powers and she's related to one of the main characters. I mean, for one thing, the story takes place in a magical world, so how on Earth can special powers be Mary Sue-ish? Secondly, if she didn't have any sort of connection to main characters, there wouldn't really be a reason for her to be there. She's got to be related to someone, whether as a colleague, lover, old friend, cousin, etc. to actually be a part of the story ( ... )
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Oh, absolutely. And while that can produce good results (I read an amusing fic mocking the "PC mania"), it can also mean that people forget Tonks isn't necessarily the annoying Cheerleader that drove them nuts in tenth grade.
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Absolutely. I don't really mind much if people say that they are annoyed by a character because the character reminds them of a person in real life, but I'm sick of said characters being turned into either evil traitors or Mary Sues. For example, personally I'm always a bit annoyed with Molly because I've had issues with over-protective parents in my life, but I'd never claim that she's a badly written character, a bad mother, evil, a Mary Sue, etc. It just isn't logical.
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I don't quite understand this bit?
I totally agree on the hair thing, though.
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Anyway, I agree that it was more likely a culmination of factors. Remus' actions would have likely devastated Tonks under any circumstances, but the reason they made her quite so depressed during HBP was that she was already dealing with her cousin's death and fighting in the war. R/T just pushed her over the edge.
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I suppose if you're more familiar with crushes than deeper relationships, that's how you see it? That would be a reasonable pop-psychology explanation for some of the teenage fangirls who are so vociferous on the subject, anyway. :)
But no, you're right, JKR's intention seems to have been that they have both genuinely fallen for the other. I'm not sure quite when she's saying the relationship started given the sequence of events, but that's a separate issue and one we're not likely to get more than a paragraph of explanation of in book 7, if that! Sometime towards the end of OotP seems like a reasonable shot.
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But I somehow think Dumbledore would've approved 100%.
I agree. Even like McGonagall says, Dumbledore would've been happiest to know there was a little bit more love in the world. That's one of my favorite quotes from the book.
5. "Only a twelve year old likes the idea of pink or purple hair."
Bad argument! I tried to make my hair purple this summer, and I just turned twenty in October. (It didn't work, by the way, but I probably should have expected that. I was trying to dye it with Kool-Aid.)
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Mine too. :)
I tried to make my hair purple this summer, and I just turned twenty in October.
Go you! I'm not daring enough, but I think purple hair is cool.
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2. Hell, even is it was just whining and mopeyness over love, I still think she rocks. Why can't she be mopy ober love? As lots of the sane fen have pointed out, she still manages to do her job and be responsible, so it's not like it affects her too much, and it makes her realistic. Lots and lots of girls get all mopey and iffy on identity cause of boys, even *gasp* cool, strong, kick ass, roxin ones like Tonks. It makes her relatable and approachable and yeah, real.
5. *Raises hand* I'm 18 and I'd dye my hair blue if I wasn't afraid of trying to land an internship or research position with blue hair.
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On second thought... ;)
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Again, there's no denying it wasn't the right place or time.
I'll deny it. It worked, therefore it was the right place and the right time. And, as laverinth points out, the public nature of the scene may have been important in why it worked.
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