My experience with Eclipse on my Moonkin has taught me time and time again that procs always happen when you least want them to. 590 extra SP while the tank is on a parry streak doesn't really mean much, whereas 111 more SP on every WG after the raid-raping ground tremor on Freya, on the other hand, is a pretty significant bonus.
As a healer, I value consistency. Being able to save the raid with a lucky proc at a critical time doesn't put content on farm. If the Plea trinket was 10 sec click buff on a 60 second CD, I would be much much more attracted to it, even though theoretically the uptime would be lower. On a side note, I tend to estimate uptime on 45s CD procs as x/50 for healing or x/55 for balance, since they don't trigger immediately.
As for pure regen stats, maths on EJ on Int vs Spirit with somewhat reasonable assumptions gave around a 3:4 ratio (4 spi = 3 int) for mana regen only post-innervate change. This includes raid buff assumptions like Replenishment. When you add in Spirit's impact on spellpower, the stats become virtually tied, with spirit ahead by a nose with the traditional valuation of throughput @ .8 and regen @ 1.0. (If you have are not OOMing, you should start to tweak that ratio in favor of SP. When you do this, spirit pulls farther ahead.) In 3.1.1, Spirit is definitely stronger with its impact on innervate.
I see what you're saying about the proc, but from my perspective you're pretty much saying you'd rather be consistently worse just for the sake of being consistent. I just think you undervalue just how much more you will doing when its active, it works out to more passive SP for a reason.
Regen wise its bar-none best aside from spark. The only thing close in terms of pure regen is Yogg25 hard, and the greatness intellect card.
Dont know what youre looking at when comparing the stats, but id recommend this table. Its closer to 1:2 then it is 3:4.
In the table you linked, that puts the value of int for regen at about 49.88. Spirit at 35.88. This is pretty close to the 3:4 ratio I mentioned before (37.5 and 50 would be exactly 3:4)
As gear improves, one would expect to move diagonally down the table. The value of int increases at a slower pace than spirit. So, as we move to Uld Hard and the next tier of content, spirit is going to continue to catch up as a pure regen statistic.
Since I don't have a screenshot of my character screen raid buffed, here's the rawr model for what I consider to be my attainable BiS pieces, fully raid buffed:
At that level of gear the intellect is far better then anything else outside of spark, keeping in mind that the Yogg-hard trinket isn't modeled yet because it was just recently found.
Even at 1300 int 1600 spi, the mana regen value of int:spi is 52:37, approximately the 4:3 ratio given before.
Also, I was under the impression that Rawr (and actually, most sims) aren't very good at modeling tree because healing is not something you can distill into a simple rotation.
Models are about the big picture. If you want a SP trinket, look at the red. Then IDS is clearly above everything else. But since IDS doesn't have anything else of value, and most other trinkets will at least 60% of the passive SP available PLUS other things.. you can't really be surprised when others are modeled closely.
In the case of SWG+Troll Divinity, they both are better regen trinkets then IDS. And because they have spirit, they get some minor points for SP, which is what makes them comparable.
Was barely worth using pre-ulduar(I personally used DMC & MDF), shouldn't even be considered anymore unless youre just stubborn. There are other trinkets available that don't sacrifice so much raw regen and still have most of the SP that IDS offers at full stacks.
There's a reason why the item budget is what it is: 3sp=1mp5. Choosing 60sp over 60mp5(which is worth 180sp in the item budget) is just silly.
Every time we have a conversation, it always ends the same way. Me throwing numbers and facts at you, and you getting backed into a corner and saying essentially saying 'ur dum' without ever giving a single retort that qualifies as a rational thought. Whatever, there's no reason for me to respond anymore. Sorry for disagreeing with your opinion on an iLvl213 trinket.
And as for the arena representation, it jumped pretty nice after the innervate change that I already told you was needed. We were dead last at the start, but it picked up a tad.
Still behind priests and paladins in every bracket, but at least we jumped ahead of shamans in 2s/3s. Guess it didn't really help your team though. 51% win with a ret at ~1600mmr? Ouch.
Math all you want, when you say stupid things like "IDS isn't a good trinket", you're just demonstrating that your mathematical models are dead wrong.
Unfortunately, even your math is suspect. I've repeatedly claimed, backed up by the EJ folks, says that Int:Spi is like a 4:3 ratio for mana regen. You disagreed, and then linked to a mana regen table on EJ that supported exactly my claim.
It's funny, we're looking at the exact same data, but you keep coming with dead wrong conclusions, while time and time again my conclusions are shown to be right.
Never said IDS isn't a good trinket. I said it is now bad(compared to other alternatives) and under-budget, because it is. And I explained why, you've done nothing to say otherwise.
All you had to say since reply one was: I prefer to use a SP trinket because I dont find myself having mana issues because I innervate myself, and IDS gives the most. Quite frankly, thats the only argument youd have. But you'd rather give a million false reasons as to why I'm wrong, instead of the ONE and only reason why you could possibly be right. Which you wouldnt be, but that would be your preference.
And regarding the ratios, you just fail terribly at interpreting numbers past their face value. The your int:spi ratios take into account how much better spirit is outside 5SR. Inside 5SR, its alot closer to 1:2 than it is to 3:4... like I said.
The irony? That going outside the 5SR to make spirit have the ratio that you want it to have would probably make your underbudgeted trinket stack fall off.
No, the irony is that you're linking tables as evidence of a 1:2 ratio when they in fact support 3:4. Maybe you should find some new numbers to quote, because the ones you have prove you wrong.
As a healer, I value consistency. Being able to save the raid with a lucky proc at a critical time doesn't put content on farm. If the Plea trinket was 10 sec click buff on a 60 second CD, I would be much much more attracted to it, even though theoretically the uptime would be lower. On a side note, I tend to estimate uptime on 45s CD procs as x/50 for healing or x/55 for balance, since they don't trigger immediately.
As for pure regen stats, maths on EJ on Int vs Spirit with somewhat reasonable assumptions gave around a 3:4 ratio (4 spi = 3 int) for mana regen only post-innervate change. This includes raid buff assumptions like Replenishment. When you add in Spirit's impact on spellpower, the stats become virtually tied, with spirit ahead by a nose with the traditional valuation of throughput @ .8 and regen @ 1.0. (If you have are not OOMing, you should start to tweak that ratio in favor of SP. When you do this, spirit pulls farther ahead.) In 3.1.1, Spirit is definitely stronger with its impact on innervate.
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Regen wise its bar-none best aside from spark. The only thing close in terms of pure regen is Yogg25 hard, and the greatness intellect card.
Dont know what youre looking at when comparing the stats, but id recommend this table. Its closer to 1:2 then it is 3:4.
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http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1053/raidbuffednostack.jpg
So with a proper raid, 1372 Spirit and 1218 Int.
In the table you linked, that puts the value of int for regen at about 49.88. Spirit at 35.88. This is pretty close to the 3:4 ratio I mentioned before (37.5 and 50 would be exactly 3:4)
As gear improves, one would expect to move diagonally down the table. The value of int increases at a slower pace than spirit. So, as we move to Uld Hard and the next tier of content, spirit is going to continue to catch up as a pure regen statistic.
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http://razorbites.com/celeras/BiSTree.jpg
At that level of gear the intellect is far better then anything else outside of spark, keeping in mind that the Yogg-hard trinket isn't modeled yet because it was just recently found.
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Also, I was under the impression that Rawr (and actually, most sims) aren't very good at modeling tree because healing is not something you can distill into a simple rotation.
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Models are about the big picture. If you want a SP trinket, look at the red. Then IDS is clearly above everything else. But since IDS doesn't have anything else of value, and most other trinkets will at least 60% of the passive SP available PLUS other things.. you can't really be surprised when others are modeled closely.
In the case of SWG+Troll Divinity, they both are better regen trinkets then IDS. And because they have spirit, they get some minor points for SP, which is what makes them comparable.
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There's a reason why the item budget is what it is: 3sp=1mp5. Choosing 60sp over 60mp5(which is worth 180sp in the item budget) is just silly.
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PS. How about that resto druid arena representation this season, eh?
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And as for the arena representation, it jumped pretty nice after the innervate change that I already told you was needed. We were dead last at the start, but it picked up a tad.
http://www.realmhistory.net/arena-statistics/class-breakdown.html
Still behind priests and paladins in every bracket, but at least we jumped ahead of shamans in 2s/3s. Guess it didn't really help your team though. 51% win with a ret at ~1600mmr? Ouch.
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Unfortunately, even your math is suspect. I've repeatedly claimed, backed up by the EJ folks, says that Int:Spi is like a 4:3 ratio for mana regen. You disagreed, and then linked to a mana regen table on EJ that supported exactly my claim.
It's funny, we're looking at the exact same data, but you keep coming with dead wrong conclusions, while time and time again my conclusions are shown to be right.
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All you had to say since reply one was: I prefer to use a SP trinket because I dont find myself having mana issues because I innervate myself, and IDS gives the most. Quite frankly, thats the only argument youd have. But you'd rather give a million false reasons as to why I'm wrong, instead of the ONE and only reason why you could possibly be right. Which you wouldnt be, but that would be your preference.
And regarding the ratios, you just fail terribly at interpreting numbers past their face value. The your int:spi ratios take into account how much better spirit is outside 5SR. Inside 5SR, its alot closer to 1:2 than it is to 3:4... like I said.
The irony? That going outside the 5SR to make spirit have the ratio that you want it to have would probably make your underbudgeted trinket stack fall off.
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