...I missed all of this. um. I'm glad. but what, what, what, Emma Bull? what leaves me baffled about this particular go-round is how someone skilled at empathetic creation of experienced identity can, not so much turn those skills off, as not turn them on when reminded to. how can someone write a character like Sparrow and then turn around and completely fail to comprehend the extent of one's privilege, in dealing with things that the rest of the world cannot take for granted? Especially when it's clearly and articulately pointed out?
watched that vid; thank you for the link. it made me cry.
...I was thinking about this a little more. usually I actively avoid these kinds of Internet blowups -- sexism in science is another one that keeps going around -- because I tend to think that they're dispiriting exercise in seeing all of the awful prejudices people have dragged up to light and how incredibly ugly people get about when called on it. It's not productive -- it's just an exercise of rubbing your nose in the ugliness of your fellow humans, which can be dreadfully discouraging, especially when you know you have to go work with these kinds of people the next day and smile about it anyway.
But I think maybe I should be going and reading some of these racism-in-fandom posts, at the very least deepad's, because I might be on the unprivileged side of the women-in-science debates, but I have white privilege out the wazoo. And that makes a big difference.
*nod* Yeah, it can definitely start to be simply Not Useful to obsessively follow flamewars... But in the long run, I do think they can be useful, particularly the ones about these kind of issues. There's so much I hadn't realized about privilege in general and most especially my own privilege before starting to really pay attention to some of this stuff last year or two (and I know that the sheer loudness of some of the blowups is part of what got me to pay attention, you know?), and even now, I know that I'm still hella ignorant about some things and that about others I will always have unhelpful kneejerk reactions, and that I'll never swing all the way over to any one side and that people will always be frustrating, and yet... And yet, I'm so grateful to be thinking about this, to be deepening my understanding by taking in some new perspectives and analytical tools, and to know that there are other people out there also trying to figure some of this out
( ... )
I also think you're right about it making a big difference what "side" you're on -- because for the less privileged, it can seem almost redundant to be discussing something so obvious, yet that you still end up having to watch otherwise awesome people try desperately to deny... over and over and over. And yet you also can't ever actually avoid it -- being able to avoid it is essentially a sign of privilege.
If you ever want to talk about it more, I (and my highly spotty understanding) am here.
If you ever want to talk about it more, I (and my highly spotty understanding) am here. ♥ Thank you. (ditto, for the record, not that I have much to offer besides an ear.)
so, yeah, I went off last night and read a lot of posts and communed with my white privilege and sorted a few things out. kind of embarrassing to realize I had never really carried out, carefully and rigorously, all the conceptual work of translating everything I have so painfully learned about dealing with and confronting male privilege to dealing with and confronting white privilege from the other end; you're right, flame wars can be good for some things after all.
my head is all full of thinky thoughts now, but somehow it feels presumptuous to expound on them? I mean, It's Not About Me; I didn't think about this stuff for cookies.
On the other, I've really started to feel a lot of empathy with individuals and how truly difficult it can be to navigate between one's own assumptions and mental landscape and the outside world...yeah. I think, you know, a lot of
( ... )
You know, if ever there were a place for My Thoughts Let Me Show You Them, this is it. I am always always always happy to read/see your thoughts -- thing is, I do think talking about this stuff is useful, and I know you, you're not doing it for cookies, unless cookies = gain in understanding and the opportunity to discuss.
It occurred to me, re: sexism, while it's true that there's a dominant binary, I do think that it's actually more complicated than that when "sexism" is expanded to include not only physical sex but also the gender performance(s) of each individual, and how those two things mesh.
But that's definitely way more subtle than many racial divides...
Oh. Oh dear. I heard mutterings, but I don't think I got far enough into link-following to know exactly what they said... Is there link to that bit you'd feel comfortable passing on?
It does seem like a fair bit of this is temper and hurt and basic lashing out, which lets me have at least a little hope that maybe in the calm light of some day down the line things might be (monumentally) reconsidered.
Skip to PNH's comments, as they're actually quite heartening, in a way. This is one of those cases where I find myself feeling incredibly empathetic about people who are at least trying, and have clearly gotten pretty far even if they occasionally fuck up.
over the comment limit, ack!elsaneJanuary 31 2009, 02:02:24 UTC
hrm. Props to pnh for that conversation at least, and I wasn't really following the debate flamewar failcapades, so I don't really know what happened with him. But I am shocked and appalled by tnh's reactions; I can't think of any way in which they are excusable.
You know, if ever there were a place for My Thoughts Let Me Show You Them, this is it. I am always always always happy to read/see your thoughts -- thing is, I do think talking about this stuff is useful, and I know you, you're not doing it for cookies, unless cookies = gain in understanding and the opportunity to discuss.That is pretty much the definition of cookies for me! :D (also
( ... )
It occurred to me, re: sexism, while it's true that there's a dominant binary, I do think that it's actually more complicated than that when "sexism" is expanded to include not only physical sex but also the gender performance(s) of each individual, and how those two things mesh.
Oh, absolutely. All I was trying to say was that the perturbations away from the dominant binary go like epsilon, and |epsilon_sexism| < |epsilon_racism|, not to mention that there are possibly multiple expansion parameters in the racism approximation; but in any case it is only an asymptotic expansion anyway, and such a simple model misses nasty resonant effects
( ... )
watched that vid; thank you for the link. it made me cry.
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But I think maybe I should be going and reading some of these racism-in-fandom posts, at the very least deepad's, because I might be on the unprivileged side of the women-in-science debates, but I have white privilege out the wazoo. And that makes a big difference.
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http://www.publishersweekly.com/blog/400000640/post/300039630.html
by rosefox, which came quite late in the discussion, but therefore has a nice little summary and a calm, interesting perspective.
I also think you're right about it making a big difference what "side" you're on -- because for the less privileged, it can seem almost redundant to be discussing something so obvious, yet that you still end up having to watch otherwise awesome people try desperately to deny... over and over and over. And yet you also can't ever actually avoid it -- being able to avoid it is essentially a sign of privilege.
If you ever want to talk about it more, I (and my highly spotty understanding) am here.
Reply
♥ Thank you. (ditto, for the record, not that I have much to offer besides an ear.)
so, yeah, I went off last night and read a lot of posts and communed with my white privilege and sorted a few things out. kind of embarrassing to realize I had never really carried out, carefully and rigorously, all the conceptual work of translating everything I have so painfully learned about dealing with and confronting male privilege to dealing with and confronting white privilege from the other end; you're right, flame wars can be good for some things after all.
my head is all full of thinky thoughts now, but somehow it feels presumptuous to expound on them? I mean, It's Not About Me; I didn't think about this stuff for cookies.
On the other, I've really started to feel a lot of empathy with individuals and how truly difficult it can be to navigate between one's own assumptions and mental landscape and the outside world...yeah. I think, you know, a lot of ( ... )
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It occurred to me, re: sexism, while it's true that there's a dominant binary, I do think that it's actually more complicated than that when "sexism" is expanded to include not only physical sex but also the gender performance(s) of each individual, and how those two things mesh.
But that's definitely way more subtle than many racial divides...
absolutely no absolutism!
*grin* Sounds good to me!
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I liked them.
I...have no words.
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I am just -- I have no words. I would say "boycott" except that hurts the wrong people. Letter campaign?
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That's... wow. Really, really, really disappointing.
It does seem like a fair bit of this is temper and hurt and basic lashing out, which lets me have at least a little hope that maybe in the calm light of some day down the line things might be (monumentally) reconsidered.
Mrph.
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http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/7386.html
Huge linkspam, very useful. :)
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http://web.archive.org/web/20070609232533/http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2005/09/please-stop-talking-about-race-and.html
Skip to PNH's comments, as they're actually quite heartening, in a way. This is one of those cases where I find myself feeling incredibly empathetic about people who are at least trying, and have clearly gotten pretty far even if they occasionally fuck up.
Reply
You know, if ever there were a place for My Thoughts Let Me Show You Them, this is it. I am always always always happy to read/see your thoughts -- thing is, I do think talking about this stuff is useful, and I know you, you're not doing it for cookies, unless cookies = gain in understanding and the opportunity to discuss.That is pretty much the definition of cookies for me! :D (also ( ... )
Reply
It occurred to me, re: sexism, while it's true that there's a dominant binary, I do think that it's actually more complicated than that when "sexism" is expanded to include not only physical sex but also the gender performance(s) of each individual, and how those two things mesh.
Oh, absolutely. All I was trying to say was that the perturbations away from the dominant binary go like epsilon, and |epsilon_sexism| < |epsilon_racism|, not to mention that there are possibly multiple expansion parameters in the racism approximation; but in any case it is only an asymptotic expansion anyway, and such a simple model misses nasty resonant effects ( ... )
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