My two cents on FanLib.com

[astridv]

(I gotta get to work but this meta has been scratching at the inside of my head, wanting out.)

[edit: removed the direkt link to fanlib.com; no need to up their google ranking] The FanLib discussion has finally hit metafandom; tomorrow it should be all over LJ.

My first reaction when I read about it on fanthropology last week was: knee-jerk unease and skepticism. Now

Comments

[astridv]

I read some of that thread. I've seen jdsampson state elsewhere (on the fanthropology thread I think) that ffn is making a profit as well, arguing that fanlib is not different from ffn. I'm wondering whether there is any truth to that statement or whether it's BS. As far as I know, all sites like ffn are non-profit, the money going into maintaining the archive.

I see that she didn't argue further when you said that ffn is not for profit. That would speak for the BS theory.

I'm a little wary when it comes to the gender issue because I think it's just one factor out of many (and I know plenty of male fic writers) but yeah, I find it offputting to see not one woman on their board of directors. It leaves a nasty aftertaste.

And... I just had a horrible thought: you could take down fandom from the outside, by drumming up enough attention that the producers have to take action....

A paranoid little part of me had the same thought, that someone's trying to force fanfic before a court, but I don't really believe that. Not least because too much thought and work went into that site. And who would be interested in that? Fanfic, as it is now, benefits all involved (Lee Goldberg's opinion notwithstanding).

Honest to god, I can't tell whether it's just amateur hour or active evil. Or both.

The mind, it boggles, eh? They got a lawyer, a high-profile one from the sound of it... they must be completely aware of the implications, and they must believe they'll be able to weasel out of any possible infringements suits. Which doesn't bode well for the writers who post there, imho.

Meh. All in all it's too high-profile for something that offers no legal protection in return. Why would anyone post there when they got LJ and ffn and, well, thousands of other sites.

[cofax7]

Oh, it's total BS, especially in light of the Grokster decision.

LJ and YG and other for-profit internet services market themselves in a variety of ways, none of which rely on fannish participation. In fact, if fanfiction went away, LJ and YG and all would be perfectly fine. They support us, but they don't cater to us and don't advertise to us and don't design the services around us.

FFN is more problematic, but it is, in the end, merely a larger version of the Gossamer archive or my homepage on Shriftweb. Or, say, back in the days when I was on Freeservers or people had Geocities pages--all those ad-supported homepages we used to suffer through. Ad-supported, but nobody's actually profiting in a measurable way from the infringement. FFN is so large that frankly if anyone was going to take action, they would have done so by now. As it is, TWOP just got bought (by Yahoo? Sony? Someone) and nobody's yet shut down the fic-recommendation forums over there.

In Grokster, the Supremes shot down Grokster because it targeted the infringing activity, because they designed the service around sharing copyrighted material--and they made money off of it. That is the analogy I find most telling here.

They claim they have a lawyer, but it's entirely possible he's been to two meetings and his practice involves only negotiating percentages in acting contracts for his clients, so he really doesn't know anything about the legal issues in fanfiction. Also, just because he's on the board doesn't mean they actually had someone do the legal analysis. Additionally, as morgandawn pointed out in my comments, lots of lawyers give good advice and then get ignored by their clients anyway...

2 cents from nowhere

[cesperanza]

I have to say, while I don't like the fanlib site, and I don't want to see profit brought into the community as a factor, and I certainly don't like the all male board of directors, I reject this argument that we should be legally worried because fanfiction is infringing. I don't think it is. There's been no legal ruling that says that it is. I think when/if it goes to court--if it ever does, which I don't think it will--fanfiction will be declared to be a transformative work. There's a huge difference between fanfic--where all the words are mine, that I put down in a unique order to convey a message that came out of my brain, even if the message is as simple as "Rodney and John are in love," (which it never is) and music or video piracy, where the mp3 someone gives me is the exact thing that I would have paid for. Vidding is a trickier case, because the source is theirs and the music is theirs and the uniqueness is in the conjunction/editing, but I'm hopeful even their that the effort put into creating the message of the vid would be enough to get us a transformative ruling. But fanfic--fanfic's a much easier sell, and slash fanfic even more than gen is a good sell (because the message is more transformative of the original source.)

And here's my devil's advocate argument: even if I haven't convinced you, it's a good thing for you to not SAY you think it's infringing anywhere in public. Because if I were the other side's lawyer, I'd say, "See! They think it's illegal!" Where I think most fans think it's illegal because they got that worried feeling through the fannish zeitgeist.

Re: 2 cents from nowhere

[astridv]

You don't have to convince me; ironically that is the position I usually argue. Talk about playing devil's advocat. ;)

There's been no legal ruling that says that it is. I think when/if it goes to court--if it ever does, which I don't think it will--fanfiction will be declared to be a transformative work.

I agree. That is exactly what I believe (with my layman's knowledge of IP law, anyway), after reading numerous discussion on this subject. But there's no court decision so there's no way of knowing whether said belief might not be wishful thinking. Fans generally don't have the necessary dough to fight a C&D so the usual reaction is to just cease and desist, no matter whether they would have a fair chance of winning.

Also, one of the factors in our favor has always been that fic is non-profit, do you think endeavours like FanLib will decrease fanfic's chances in court? (I mean theoretically, as I believe that no one really has an interest in taking the matter to court)

And here's my devil's advocate argument: even if I haven't convinced you, it's a good thing for you to not SAY you think it's infringing anywhere in public. Because if I were the other side's lawyer, I'd say, "See! They think it's illegal!" Where I think most fans think it's illegal because they got that worried feeling through the fannish zeitgeist.

Hm. Interesting view. I'll mull it over