This new season brings with it the signs of hope.

[ashleybruner]

Is it possible to believe in God, but not the bible? I think so, but I think that the god you would believe in is not the Christian one. I like talking about the religious beliefs of others. It helps me to have a conversation about the topic without judging others or trying to shove my beliefs down other's throats. I want to know and understand

Comments

[whatsherstory]

But how can morality be founded in religion if morals always existed with or without religion? People had these morals long before someone slapped a label on the belief and called it Catholicism, which is one of the newest religions. It's not like before the ten commandments came about no one thought it was ethically wrong to kill, lie, steal, cheat, etc. It was merely a matter of compiling certain beliefs and then giving a name to that set. I think that you could have formed your own opinion on whether or not you think it's okay to kill without being told that's what is right.
Also, if you do apply terms like 'right' or 'wrong' to morals, I agree that of course they should not be circumstantial. But, again, it's up to the individual to define those terms.
That brings up a similar point. If terms like 'right' and 'wrong' shouldn't be circumstantial, then what about the Bible? You follow the Ten Commandments, but disagree with its views on premarital sex. I'm not criticizing, but rather wondering how it's okay to be strict on certain beliefs, but throw out the ones you disagree with (seems circumstantial). And how, then, is that still Catholicism?

[ashleybruner]

I believe the world started through religion, thus morals that have come from religion has always been around. Catholicism comes from Christianity, which is founded in Judaism which is one of the older religions in the world, these belief's aren't new. If you don't believe that morals are founded in something outside of ourselves then I don't think you can say anything is right or wrong, ethics differ from person to person in each circumstance. It must have been okay for Hitler to kill all the people that he did because he thought that what he was doing was right. I find it contradictory for you to say that morals should not be circumstantial, yet it is up to the individual to define their own morals. There is nothing that is morally right or wrong then - unless you think that your morals are the right ones. The premarital sex thing is tricky. It is ambiguous in the bible when it comes to this, after reading it and talking to others about it. Some say it's just an outdated misinterpretation of 'un-natural reltaionships'spoken of in the bible, keeping in mind that at this time homosexuality, prostitution, and many wives were the norm. If Alex and I break up, I am not having sex until I'm married. Right now, I believe that I will spend the rest of my life with him, of course, this could be very naive and we can break up in a week, and if that's the case, then I will wait for marriage. I'm not perfect Audra, and I will be the first to admit it - that falls in line with my belief that humans are pre-disposed to do morally wrong things, and it's a fight to not act on it, and that is why God has given us a guide as to what is right and wrong. No one is perfect - Catholics included.

[whatsherstory]

I don't understand what you mean when you use the word 'religion' in your first sentence. Unless you mean that you believe the world was created by God, in which case these are two different terms. God and religion aren't the same thing. Religion is a set of beliefs people follow. There are people who don't practise religion that believe in God. God can still exist in a system of beliefs without rituals or testaments. Religion is comprised of whatever beliefs the founding person of that religion chooses to follow. No religion existed without a person sitting down and saying (for example) 'I believe it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and kill - I will follow these beliefs and call it Ashlology. Anyone who wishes to follow as well will be an Ashlologist.' So, of course, those beliefs precede the religion itself. What about people who aren't Catholic? Or atheists? Do you think that every atheist must be a murderer because they don't know whether or not it's okay to kill? They're not ignorant to those beliefs - they form them on their own if they choose to do so.
I don't think morals are formed in something outside of ourselves, and that's why I don't draw a line of what's right and what's wrong in the world. It's what I think is right and what I think is wrong. Those are called beliefs. Everyone has them. There is no universally set definition for what is right/wrong, good/evil, etc.
'Hitler to kill all the people that he did because he thought that what he was doing was right.' Exactly my point. He thought it was right - in accordance with his beliefs, it was right to him. Myself as well as a lot of people don't agree with him, just as not everyone believes homosexuality or pre-marital sex are right. I think you misunderstand what I say about 'right' and 'wrong' being circumstantial - they are circumstantial definitions to the human race. As in, what's right to one person is wrong to another. It's a matter of choosing which beliefs you think are right and wrong and then following them yourself from there.
Of course it is a possibility that the Bible is outdated. With beliefs, nothing is fact, so you're open to unlimited possibilities. That's why they're called beliefs. It's what you think to be true. That does not mean necessarily that it is, but anyone is free to make that conclusion on their own.
If the pre-marital sex thing is outdated, what about everything else in the Bible? It's a funny coincidence that the things people exempt as outdated misinterpretations are the things that give them pleasure. Seems more like these loopholes are ways of justifying 'sin'. Pre-marital sex being one sin people work on excusing because their basic animal instincts drive them to do it. I don't think I even need to get into the hypocrisy of this sin-repent-sin-repent system either.
Right now you believe you'll spend the rest of your life with Alex, but from a Catholic viewpoint, how does that justify sex without marriage? Doesn't that just shun the 'sacredness' of the whole ceremony of marriage to begin with? Marriage means committing yourself to one person for the rest of your life, so if you openly admit to the possibility of a break-up, then that completely goes against the idea of marriage in the first place. Thus, in the event of a break-up, not having sex until marriage doesn't prove anything since you've already willingly gone against its principles.
I am in no way implying that you should strive for perfection, since just like many terms, what's perfect to one person is imperfect to the next. Just as is what's morally wrong or right. I don't mean at all for this to come off as an attack because most of the beliefs I've used in these examples aren't even my own, but those of the Catholic faith. Just as one of your profs said, it's lazy to follow a religion without being able to back up your reasons for doing so. So, I'm merely challenging your argument because I think it's important for us to be able to intellectually discuss our beliefs in order to test the strength of our faith - an important muscle, I say.

P.S. Ashlology is a pretty catchy name - a new religion that's okay with pre-marital sex, mayhaps? Think about it.
P.S.S. Yes, the above comment is a joke. Too soon?

[ashleybruner]

I meant that God created the world. Not in the seven-day model, but I believe that there was an intelligent designer and we are not merely here because of random selection. I agree that God can exist outside of religion, but I think that religion is a set rituals, beliegs, testamants given to the human race by God to try and make sense and come closer to him. It is not soley man-made.
So by aknowleding that what is right and wrong are really only your personal beliefs, it seems that you can never judge or hold an opinion on what any other person does. I don't understand how you can not agree with Hitler, becuase who's to say that what you think is 'morally right' is actually 'right'. From my point of view, you are acting as your own god. Unlike you, I believe that there is a universally set definition of what is right and wrong, and I am comfortable in that belife because I have not just pulled these beliefs out of my own individual, internal compas as to what is right or wrong.
I knew that you would bring that up about the bible and how I suggested that perhaps that what it says about pre-marital sex, something that benifits me, is an out-dated belife. We were talking about pre-marital sex, so that's what I brought up. I could have talked about the old testament where cutting hair was looked down on, or touching a dead body was un-acceptable, but that was not relevant. I don't think it is a coincidence that this is what people are taking a deeper look at, I think it is just a reflection of our times. I don't see the hypocrisy of the sin-repent thing. I see the comfort, and acceptance in it, to know that no matter what I do, if I truly feel sorry for my actions, that I will be completely forgiven. How is that hypocirtical? We mess up. And we will continue to mess up, and then be forgiven. It is our 'basic animal instincts' that drive us to act this way.
I'm not going to address that whole pre-marital sex thing anymore, I don't think. I still am not sure if I bleive that bible says it is wrong. If it does, then what I'm doing is wrong. End of story. Will I stop? Probably not, is that wrong, yes - can you say it's wrong, no.
I know what I'm striving for, and I know that it's not for nothing. There's a point to my life here. If I didn't believe in God, or feel so strongly about my religion I would feel terrified and alone in the world. I do not understand the point in acting 'right' or 'wrong' according to your own terms if you know that these beliefs really mean nothing at all.
I know you're not attacking me, I enjoy debating this and am not one to take things personally. Although, I would enjoy if you included your belifes too, so I'm not the only one getting picked apart.
Tag, you're it.