*waves* Coupla things..

[ash48]

Can anyone link me to a straightforward tutorial on making .gifs? I'd really like to give them a go and my attempts so far have been pretty abysmal.

Also... a

Comments

[maenad]

Hm. But wasn't Dean's argument in Monster Movie that he had clearly returned in a different body, since he lacked any signs of old injuries and, well, wasn't a zombie? Depending on exactly what was done to bring him back, the same may have been true of Sam at the end of Swan Song but there's pretty strong evidence that he's taken care of that problem since. A lot. :) Of course, you could argue that it doesn't count because he doesn't remember it, but then on the other hand he clearly does remember everything he did before he fell, and in any case he seems to quite firmly believe that the slate isn't wiped clean and he has to take responsibility for the things he did while soulless. So ... I think I vote no? Although I may have just tied myself in a logical knot. :)

[ash48]

Hee! I love the thinking...

Though yeah - ok, new body. I never really considered that before. And Sam's body isn't "new" so everything his body did counts. And um... yeah... I think he was pretty busy on that front..;) There was certainly no indication that Sam came back clean of scars or anything.

I suppose my feeling with the title is that it referred more to Sam's state of mind. Not so much being virginal or pure but rather starting in a place of innocence. I felt, initially anyway, there was a sense of innocence from Sam until he started to become away of something "wrong"..

Hmm.... I think some things they get us to "suspend our disbelief" on in that show is pretty out there. Dean's return to his body is one of those I reckon... I don't know why I never thought about it being a completely new, "regrown" body.. interesting.

[maenad]

Huh, okay - that's interesting, because I always assumed it was 'regrown', because right from the start Bobby was spluttering that it didn't make sense for this to be Dean - because even if his soul got out, his body was past saving. And then when the angels resurrected Adam, they pretty much had to build him a new body, because his big brothers set fire to the old one. :)

I think there is a sort of tongue-in-cheek reference going on here, in that they recognise they've done the just-came-back-from-hell story before. They never did establish quite how the dragons were picking virgins, but they did establish that there was a certain amount of trial and error involved, because they almost grabbed the wrong girl on the strength of a purity ring and a Catholic school uniform - things that suggest like virginity but aren't it.

Sam starts out thinking his situation is much like Dean's - he's fresh out of hell, and has been given a second chance; Dean says the slate is clean and there's no price left to pay. But that's not quite true

[ash48]

Yes, yes.. it makes perfect sense! It's just not something I really thought about. And that's exactly what they referred to anyway. I kinda just thought of him being magically healed and not completely new.

And I love your reasoning here about Sam. That's why Bobby's reaction to Sam was so very important. It showed that there are ramifications from Sam's soulless time. I like the reference to the dragon here too.

So, I have to ask you this...Sam says he has to "fix this" in his conversation Dean. Fix what he did. But I can't figure out how. I mean, he sought redemption during S5 for releasing Lucifer and found it in his sacrifice. But what can he do now? Kill monsters presumably, but I'm struggling to figure out if there's something else he should do. Surely not sacrifice himself again?

I'm only asking because this might be something I missed - bit like the Dean body thing.. :).

xx

[maenad]

Thanks. :)

No - I don't think we can say yet. Because that's the other thing Sam said: he needs to know what he did. When he let Lucifer out, he knew what he'd done so he had a concrete idea of how to fix it even before they had specific plans. Now he doesn't know. Even if he remembers everything he mightn't know all the important factors, because soulless-Sam was incurious and he wasn't in charge of this operation. So they're going to have to find out what he did and go from there.

I ... don't think it need involve self-sacrifice? I mean, the Lucifer thing was a redemption-equals-death scenario, and I don't think there's any indication here that Sam is in need of redemption. This was something that was done to him, and taking responsibility is more a matter of asserting his own identity than of needing to feel guilty. He's Sam - he fixes things because he cares about consequences

[ash48]

Yeah, I think that's probably the way it will go.

My feeling was that Sam hadn't actually remembered anything - just knew what Cas had told him. But then... Cas didn't see everything. Like, I wonder if Cas knew Sam watched Dean be turned into a vamp. Sam apologised to Dean as though he knew he did this. Not sure. He may just have apologised for me so cold hearted. Maybe as the season moves forward Sam will learn more and more about what he did. I'll be very interested to see what happens when Samuel returns...

Wow... I'm rambling. Lots of thinky thoughts after this ep. :D