Not About *Starship Troopers*

[ase]

Today - yesterday, technically - I finished reading Starship Troopers, and I feel the need to mention my ongoing wish for novels where more than half the cast is female, and it is no big deal. Our protagonist Juana does lots of plot-related stuff and interacts on a regular basis with her coworkers Danielle, Desiree and Beth, as well as Ryan and

Comments

[herewiss13]

Couple of Doyle-ian points

1) the book was first Serialized for Boy's Life, the boyscout magazine...so not a lot of incentive for female characters.

2) While the _army_ is all men, Heinlein did, interestingly for 1959, make the Navy all _women_...based either on their mathematical ability or tolerance for g-forces...I can't recall at this exact moment (possibly both). So while the view-point character's interactions _are_ predominantly male, Heinlein does make a very large and impressive place for women in his universe...it just happens to be off-stage due to the story of the "grunts" he's telling.

[ase]

This is kind of mean, and you can call me on that, but did you read the subject line? I'm kind of cranky because I've been exposed to too much SF where women are absent, or are present solely as romantic interests. I'm ready for something else now, thanks, and I don't mean chick-lit or romances.

Back to Starship Troopers. (I keep trying to abbreviate that as ST, but thanks to too much Star Trek, I can't quite do it.) Heinlein mentions several female characters who are Navy, and ship pilots, and gives a one sentence "faster reactions, and can handle more gee" explanation. However, the navy is not all-female: at least one MI recruit washed out and became "third cook in a troop transport . . . he felt the he was a little bit better than the ordinary Navy man." (Mid chapter 4; p46 of 208 in the library's 1961 Signet pb) So there is a place for women in Heinlein's armed forces. However, I don't think starting a blow-by-blow worldbuilding critique in comments is worth it; I think other people have probably made the same points elsewhere.

[herewiss13]

I did not, in fact, read the subject line. Mea culpa.

*hangs head*

[tygerr]

For his day, Heinlein was tremendously progressive and forward-thinking. Starship Troopers, in fact, posited that women made better pilots than men, and there were scads of women in vital combat roles in the military. They were in the background for the story he was telling, but they were THERE. Most of his contemporaries wouldn't have done even that much.

[ase]

Very true. However, it's now 2007. I can appreciate Heinlein's historical context, but that doesn't mean I have to react with glowing praise.

[filkferengi]

I know it's uncomfortable for you, being all restless & twitchy & looking for sf that fits better with contemporary sensibilities. However, it's great for us, since that means you'll find great stuff & share it with us. [See Miles' comment about getting experts to find the good sf for you, which he shamelessly cribbed from Cordelia anyway.]

[ase]

Aw, thanks. The classics have their place, but there's such as thing as overdosing.

If you're looking for recs, I might try Rosemary Kirstein's Steerswoman series. Her books show a gratifying attention to detail, and subvert some tropes quite prettily. Look for The Steerswoman's Road, an omnibus of the first two novels.

[filkferengi]

I read those, but took so long getting the other two, I'd have to reread them all to get caught up. Such a hardship. ;)

I've heard #4 ends on a cliffhanger; have you heard anything about further books?

[charlie_ego]

hee, I read Starship Troopers fairly recently, and I thought it was just hilarious. I love how Heinlein comes up with airtight solutions to social problems... provided a particular set of (extremely specific) conditions is met. Perfect democracy? Easy! Oh, provided you have some rilly rilly powerful aliens to war against (but not too powerful as to beat you all the way up). Perfect revolution? (Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which although it's completely sexist and whatever I absolutely love.) Also easy! Oh, have I mentioned the part where you need an omnipotent omniscient computer?

[ase]

Oh, have I mentioned the part where you need an omnipotent omniscient computer?

If it's all right with you, I may turn that into an icon. That's Heinlein to a tee. If only people were sensible - but they're not. People sometimes act irrationally by their own standards, and sometimes act really strangely by other people's (cultures, etc) standards. I find it somewhat telling that Heinlein spends a lot of time talking about the Bug War, but never explains how it was started. Deliberate author choice, or author oversight?

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a thrilling adventure story, and - despite the datedness - really rocked when I tried it a couple years ago.

[charlie_ego]

hee, that would be great!

Hmm... now I'm imagining a 1984-type conspiracy where everyone's *told* that there is a Big Bad War... but now, have you ever talked to one of these Bugs? Do we really know they are bugs at all? Perhaps they are clever government-controlled robots!

Yeah, Harsh Mistress is my all-time favorite Heinlein, and the only one I've felt the urge to buy. (My best friend made me read it after I complained that I didn't much like Heinlein-- at the time I'd only read his meandering late-career random-love crap.)

[ase]

Do we really know they are bugs at all? Perhaps they are clever government-controlled robots!

Have you ever seen Wag the Dog? It's a comedy that involves a hoax war created through faked footage.

What I really want is someone's pastiche/homage/reworking of Starship Troopers for the 21st C. Lose the patronizing "gee, look at those plucky women!" attitude, add in Korea and Vietnam and Iraq (the first and second times).

...at the time I'd only read his meandering late-career random-love crap.

I seem to be one of a very small minority that has avoided late Heinlein.