My extremely, 'OMG! You have no life!!!' long "Doctor Who" post

[arabian]

I promised a long Doctor Who post and BOY! did I deliver. This baby was originally one post, then I split it into four posts, then I decided to go back and put it in one post. I'm done now, no more re-arranging. So it's just all together in one looooooooong, fell swoop. Phew

Comments

[nobleplatypus]

Donna is awesome topped with awesomesauce with a light sprinkling of awesome on top.

As for your number one and two, to play devil's advocate... couldn't that be summed up, "they undermined Martha's character for the sake of hammering home their personal OTP"? Maybe that's why they wrote Martha's crush in there, maybe it isn't (probably is, frankly, because the crush was so out-of-nowhere and no-sense-makey), but making a character do something irritating/ridiculous/ooc just to prove a point about a character not even present seems like poor writing to me. Martha could have been a lot more awesome in her own right, and the Doctor could have recognized that more often (he could have said, "Hey, thanks for putting up with a bunch of racist asshats and getting my tea and cleaning my room without complaint for three months, that was really amazing of you, let's go chill on a pretty, peaceful planet for a few weeks and I'll buy you some cookies" without implying "I love you" or undermining what he had with Rose); as it was, Martha might as well have been wearing a "He Loves Rose More" sandwich board and ringing a bell. :P

[arabian]

I don't know. It didn't come out of nowhere for me. It was introduced in the first appearance when he kissed her. She was affected by that, and thought he'd been flirting with her. It all grew from there.

As for how he treated Martha, see, I never got the feeling that he didn't appreciate her at all. Yes, he was ass-y at times, but that grew, I believe, from him not wanting to deal with her crush. She just didn't see how he did appreciate her because she wanted him to loooooooooove her.

And, yes, all that crap happened in "Human Nature," BUT that was not the Doctor knowing any of it because he wasn't the Doctor. He couldn't have known precisely how bad Martha would have it before he became Dr. Smith. And, calling back to "School Reunion," when Rose was the lunch lady for a bit of time, the Doctor was a snarky, cheeky ass to her and he KNEW what was up because he was the Doctor in full form.

These seasons are clearly scripted as ARCS, not just plot-wise, but character-wise and THIS was the character-arc for the Doctor and Martha. And in the end, I think it helped clear and set up important things for both characters (as well as Rose, and then Donna).

[nobleplatypus]

It just seemed a little too instantaneous... but I'm a crusty old cynic about love, anyway. ;)

Well, he knew it was 1930s rural England and that Martha was going to have to pretend to be a servant and that she'd probably get a lot of obnoxious, cruel comments about her race and her social station--and even if they'd been in a more forgiving time period for her, she'd still have to essentially babysit him for three months (and even John Smith would have been a handful). And she got a hug and a cursory "thanks" (after the Doctor offered Joan a trip through time and space, "just the two of us," implying that Martha would have gotten the boot if Joan had taken him up on his offer). Regardless of what Martha wanted from the Doctor, I don't think he gave her enough.

You say Martha wanted the Doctor to "loooooooove her" as if it's a laughable desire, and I'd agree with you if he hadn't fallen for Rose. He's never blatantly fallen for a companion before, so falling for Rose set a precedent--and changed the role of companion from "someone who, ideally, runs about with the Doctor and helps out or gets captured or possessed or what have you" to "someone who, ideally, falls in love with the Doctor and has him love her back." And if that's the standard of excellence, and if no other companion is allowed to meet that standard for the sake of keeping the Doctor/Rose dynamic sacred... then they've kind of written themselves into a corner. And I think they realized they'd done so, and that's why they've been going to such lengths to keep Donna and the Doctor platonic pals. Don't get me wrong, I like platonic better... I just can't shake the feeling that Martha got a bit screwed over while the writers tried to figure out wtf they (and the Doctor) were going to do with Rose out of the picture.

This is when I have to keep reminding myself that I did like Rose. :P I'm not so sure I'm glad to have her back in the picture, though.

[arabian]

I don't know if it's that I disagree with your logic, or I'm just too stubborn to let go of my Doctor/Rose love, LOL!, but I'm just not seeing things the way you do. I don't know maybe it comes from watching S1 all in one swoop, and watching S2 in one swoop, and then S3 a few weeks later all in one fell swoop. It just all played out to me as this planned arc. And, honestly, it could have simply been that as lovely and talented as Freema Aygeman is, she isn't the right fit because people love Rose unreservedly, and people love Donna unreservedly. I don't know.

[nobleplatypus]

Yeah, I dunno. I've watched a good chunk of classic!Who as well, and there's a huuuuge difference between what the show used to be and what it is, now. I'd recommend the old stuff, though, especially the Four and Sarah Jane. It's fun stuff. ^_^ I think Netflix has most of it, and that's probably the most convenient way to get ahold of it, if you're interested. Bookstores sell some of the old arcs, but it's patchy.

And ever since Lost, I've been far less inclined to give writers the benefit of the doubt. >_> Ah, well, we can agree to disagree.

[arabian]

I rather expect they're different which is why I likely won't watch Classic Who, I may someday, but I really don't see myself doing so.

Well, you know from my thoughts on HIMYM fandom that if I have a history of seeing the writers follow-through then I'm more inclined to have faith. I already knew from Felicity and Alias where following J.J. Abrams could lead. I hadn't been let down by Carter & Bays, and RTD hasn't let me down either. They need to screw up themselves before I don't trust them. When a writer lets me down, I don't forget ... I give them another chance, but when I see the pattern repeating I walk away, but I have faith until they specifically prove my faith wrong.

I am a wee concerned about what will happen in 2010 when Stephen Moffat takes over for RTD, but I like his work so far and he's been with the show from the first season of new Who, so I'm more willing to believe it will still continue to rock.

[nobleplatypus]

I like Moffat quite a bit so far... the episodes he writes usually wind up being my favorites. It'll be interesting to see what he does when he has a whole season to work with.

[arabian]

I just went though and compared my faves with the writers and a lot of his I did really enjoy and listed, so I am hopeful. But, we'll see.

[butterfly]

Well, he knew it was 1930s rural England and that Martha was going to have to pretend to be a servant and that she'd probably get a lot of obnoxious, cruel comments about her race and her social station

He didn't, though. He specifically says in the episode that the TARDIS is the one picking the time and place and his cover story. The Doctor had nothing to do with it. To quote from the episode: "Now, the TARDIS will take care of everything. Invent a life story for me, find me a setting and integrate me. Can't do the same for you... you'll just have to improvise. I should have just enough residual awareness to let you in."

He also never tells Joan that it would be 'just the two of us'. He says, "We could start again. I'd like that, you and me. We could try, at least. Because everything that John Smith is and was, I'm capable of that, too," and asks her to come with him, but he never says that it'll be just the two of them. He just asks her to come along and offers the possibility of romance.

[nobleplatypus]

He also never tells Joan that it would be 'just the two of us'. He says, "We could start again. I'd like that, you and me. We could try, at least. Because everything that John Smith is and was, I'm capable of that, too," and asks her to come with him, but he never says that it'll be just the two of them. He just asks her to come along and offers the possibility of romance.

He doesn't say outright that it would be just them, but I think it's pretty heavily implied in that quote, there. And we've already seen how Joan reacted to Martha, seeing her as nothing more than the 'help.' And granted, in that situation, it's an understandable viewpoint--but there's no reason it would change if Joan joined the TARDIS crew, no reason for her to automatically view Martha as an equal, and the Doctor's intelligent enough to realize that, and to realize that there really is no way that Martha and Joan would fit in the same picture. If Joan had accepted his offer, Martha would not have stayed with them, and he had to have known that.

[butterfly]

he had to have known that.

The Doctor is also the person who thought that inviting Reinette along in "The Girl in the Fireplace" would be fine. I don't think that I credit him with as much emotional intelligence as you do. The Doctor is, on occasion, a great big dumbo, as Donna has said.

[nobleplatypus]

I credit the Doctor with plenty of things that I would never, ever credit the writers.