For my records
More alt.polyamory posts by me about sexual harrassment etc.
Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Aqua wrote:
>> When I was first emailed by Orlando, I replied cautiously (knowing his reputation) but determined to make up my own mind. I found his emails quickly became creepy and had that sensation like when you're being rubbed by a frotteur on a crowded bus.
>
> Your only alternative to decreasing that sensation was not only to cease all contact with me but also to undertake this crusade warning your comatrons against me. Surely, there could have been other alternatives. You could have told me about this sensation of being rubbed up against and we could have talked it through to see what I was doing to cause it and what I could do differently. But, by demanding that I stop emailing you, you closed off any possibility of better communication.
Okay, just for the record, we are going to drag this out once and for all. I don't have your original emails; I was on a different computer waaaay back then and I'd be surprised if it still exists. I can see I will have to save and store for display* future examples, just so that third parties at least can see that we're not making this up.
As I remember it, you first emailed me as a result of a discussion about BDSM on alt.poly. The first creepy thing was that I was participating in that discussion as a not-into-BDSM person and you've been fairly loudly against BDSM the entire time I've known you. I distinctly remember telling you in email that I wasn't comfortable answering the questions you'd asked me and if we didn't find a different subject, our email exchange was at an end. You insisted that BDSM was the only interesting thing we had to talk about, so our exchange ended shortly after that.
So, in summary, I did tell you I was uncomfortable, we did (sort of) talk about what we could do about it but you didn't care about my boundaries.
And I didn't demand you stop emailing me back then; I just searched my mail folders and I happen to have a few emails from you from 2004, and a reply in my sent-mail folder. It's quite innocuous; you asked a question about e-prime (the English language without forms of "to be") and I replied with a web reference.
I seem to have deleted anything subsequent from you (and since I apparently don't ever clean out my sent-mail folder I feel fairly sure I've not sent you email since 2004); I don't remember what specifically happened, and it's quite possible I based my decision on your attitudes and behaviour here on the newsgroup.
You didn't respect my boundaries when I asked you to; I heard too many examples from other women of you not respecting their boundaries; I have much, much better things to do with my time than try to negotiate anything with you when I'm as sure as I am that I know what the outcome will be.
And by now, I have absolutely no respect for you whatsoever; that's pretty fatal to any kind of amicable relationship from my side. Not that you ever seem to care or notice what the other person thinks.
>> Each time, Orlando ended up demonstrating he had no intention of ever respecting any woman's boundaries.
>
> I enjoy it when women erect few boundaries against me. If I am repeatedly being told that I fail to respect a woman's boundaries, I want nothing to do with her because of her ridiculous boundaries in the first place. If someone has boundaries against how much email I send, whether or not we talk on the phone, what subjects get discussed, etc., I don't need them as friends or lovers.
Erm, Orlando, you are spectacularly failing to follow your own supposed principle here. (I am of course not pointing this out for his benefit, but for any random bystanders).
>> From memory, at least one of the 4 in the "female and not emailed" category has moved to "female and emailed" in the meantime, and other women have emailed me since to add themselves to the tally, most recently MJ, which is of course how I found out Orlando had been emailing her.
>
> Burn me at the stake for emailing MJ with information relevant to her situation.
No, I'm just laughing at you and your paranoid belief that I'd found out about MJ because us Evul Bitches are all secretly emailing each other all the time; instead, MJ found you creepy, googled you, found my survey, and contacted me all by herself.
[snip]
> I remember each and every email and telephone interaction I've ever had with an alt.poly woman, no exceptions.
[snip]
These telephone interactions would not by any chance be the result of you asking alt.polyites for their phone numbers, despite your claim elsewhere you have no such numbers?
And if I may, how am I supposed to reconcile that statement of yours with this one:
Message-ID=
>> We have had other discussions on alt.poly (around the time of my 2008
>> survey I think) revealing that he does email so many women he gets some
>> of them mixed up. I thought that particular exchange was _very_
>> revealing of how he thinks of us, and I should try to find it for my
>> records.
>
> What's your point? I remember people based on the frequency and intensity of
> our communication. If I email a hundred women and only exchange a few
> pleasantries, I likely will not remember them or get them confused. But, what's
> your point in all this?
>> Based on some examples of what male posters have said, women responded to, and
> then Orlando responds to the female poster (but not the male), I feel reasonably sure Orlando has killfiled all identified male alt.polyamory posters.
>
> Do you want a medal for that deduction?
No, but I'm very grateful that you're willing to publicly confirm my suspicion. Thank you. In future I won't say "reasonably sure", I'll say you've confirmed as much.
Aqua
* I think I was trained in handling biohazardous materials once, I've certainly got basic radiation safety training.
More ranting, more Orlando. I don't know if I'm entirely fair in the below, but I am really fucking angry at what songbird wrote. You have been warned.
songbird wrote:
> Aqua wrote:
>> songbird wrote:
>>
>>> the back story aspect i don't know
>>> enough about to comment other than
>>> it seems sad and unfortunate on many
>>> levels.
>>
>> Okay, for the benefit of newcomers and any recent lurkers:
> ....
>> When I was first emailed by Orlando, I replied cautiously (knowing his
>> reputation) but determined to make up my own mind. I found his emails
>> quickly became creepy and had that sensation like when you're being
>> rubbed by a frotteur on a crowded bus.
>
> you reach for severe interpretations and
> mix contexts (this is not a physical rubbing space
> nor a public transportation device).
Oh for fuck's sake.
I now understand exactly why you've been killfiled by so many people here, songbird. You're telling me I didn't or shouldn't, have the emotional reaction I had.
Here's another handy hint for any clueless lurkers about social skills: when someone is recounting an emotional reaction, do not deny them their experience.
We could perhaps have a discussion about whether my reaction was fair or justified; I'm inclined to say YES!!!, so we might as well not bother. And I do not say that about every emotional reaction I have, by any means.
> it is a public place of words that has
> hooks to private spaces of words
> which can be altered into other types of
> contact.
>
> obviously, your feelings are your
> feelings, but can you explain to me
> why you'd feel any sense of threat
> from a blind man with no actual
> means of agency?
Oh gee, thanks, for (sort of) acknowledging that what happened inside my head was in fact what happened inside my head, two paragraphs later.
Feminism 101: many women spend large parts of their lives being aware that some men may become unpleasant, may be threats in various forms, and we become very clued-in to hints that a given man might be such.
Can you really not see from how Orlando describes me, describes Serene, describes Pat Kight, describes MJ, etc here in public, how many woman here will feel a sense of threat from Orlando, blind or not? Do you not understand that several former alt.poly posters who had more extensive interactions with him no longer post here because they do not want to deal with his taunting responses, his demonstrated willingness to use confidential information to belittle others?
(I suppose I should be grateful that the biggest digs he can make at me seem to be "feminist" and "Australian". He hasn't even managed to really dig with the "feminist" part: I'm a humourless feminist, because I don't find sexist jokes funny. But yeah, that's part of the reason I've taken on the role I have here; he doesn't seem to have as much to hurt me with as some others.)
So, what kinda bullsh!t are you pulling about "no actual means of agency"? This is a text medium, all we are here to each other is text, Orlando has just as much agency as any of the rest of us, and he chooses to use it in ways that pushes and crosses women's boundaries repeatedly, despite their requests and demands that he stops. He makes the space hostile to women, and women leave, or reduce their participation.
Please do not pull any kind of "sticks and stones" nonsense, because I can find the references for scientific studies that show that what people say about each other does mean something. Words can and do hurt. Abuse can be verbal and emotional rather than just physical (and I understand it often takes much longer to recover from). This situation, despite my physical body being on a different continent from most of the rest of you, does affect me. You are being disengenious to pretend that just because you're not emotionally involved (apparently) that you are the one who is the reasonable and fair judge of this situation.
In feminism/racism 101 that thing "I'm not emotionally involved therefore I'm the reasonable judge" is called "The view from nowhere".
> personal information exchanged
> is always risky as would be any
> openly identifiable other things -- if
> i were a fearful person i would not
> use a valid e-mail address nor would
> i respond to e-mails from people
> i didn't know without checking _FIRST_.
> doing otherwise would mean a
> certain lack of common sense which
> would be worth examining and learning
> from and also pointing to a certain
> lack of self-care/respect which would
> also be worth thinking about.
Sexism 101: Blaming the victim.
> he's always been very open about his
> interactions, his aims, his goals, his
> changing situation with partners, etc.
Oh no he hasn't. As per this recent example, MJ had no idea who he was.
He took advantage of the fact that she didn't know anything about him (and was likely somewhat emotionally vulnerable given what she described in her opening post to alt.poly) to try to get emotionally close to her.
> i know this is a very charitable view
> of him and abstracts the conflicts with
> you and others to the point where you're
> going to disagree with me, but if you
> add to the above hispanic upbringing
> and the social challenges of being blind
> i think you have a little more of an idea
> of why things are as they are and why
> his interactions go astray. he wants
> intimacy with others as much as anyone
> else, but because of his plight he's not
> going to get it by hanging back and
> hoping to be noticed (that doesn't work
> for most men). he's gotta show and be
> seen and his style of showing is loud
> and brash and in your face and many
> women here in a.p. don't like that from
> men period (there are few alpha male
> types here on a regular basis).
Oh bullsh!t. We have had conversations with Orlando about his style on multiple occasions. We have had conversations about how being blind makes his experience different on multiple occasions. That train left the station many years ago now.
And you do realise that real alpha males do not need to push anyone's boundaries, let alone infringe on them? The behaviour Orlando shows is not remotely "alpha", it seems more "desperate" and "bullying" to me.
Also, sexism 101: The benefit of the doubt automatically being extended to the man, not the woman.
> ... he's already
> admitted it and i think he admitted it back
> then too. i don't think he's ever hidden his
> efforts nor could he since others can post
> what he's sent.
No, as far as I remember, he first publicly admitted that he only emailed women as a result of my survey. He'd previously claimed he emailed men too, and he came up with an example who denied it, so I didn't trust his word. Now he's confirmed it, I don't feel the need to run the survey again.
Similarly, since he's now confirmed my suspicion that he killfiles male posters, I don't need to go check over that again either.
Both of those factoids surprised several people when they first were talked about. He's not been open about them because they make him look creepier and that would cramp his style.
>> And so to be blunt there's a point where I don't care whether male
>> alt.poly posters think this is a big problem or not, or Orlando is
>> just "sad and unfortunate". *I* know the story, other women here
>> know the story, and we need to work together to support each other
>> and new women, whether any man gives a f*ck or not.
>
> you sound like just like him
> justifying harm to others.
Yes, and there's dozens of other alt.poly posters complaining about my behaviour on a regular basis. Actually, I know I surf the edge in the case of Orlando and I get reminders from other alt.polyites when I cross it, and I try to do better.
And again, feminism 101: women who are angry at men are not equivalent to men who are angry at women.
And you surely are not an impartial and fair judge of whether I sound just like him or not.
Aqua
Otherwise, I am pretty much over the both of them and from here on, will be concentrating on what to write in the FAQ supplement/warning thing the newsgroup needs.
This entry is originally published at http://aquaeri.dreamwidth.org/80489.html. Please go here to read comments; here to leave a comment (you can use your LJ OpenID).
comments so far.
Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Aqua wrote:
>> When I was first emailed by Orlando, I replied cautiously (knowing his reputation) but determined to make up my own mind. I found his emails quickly became creepy and had that sensation like when you're being rubbed by a frotteur on a crowded bus.
>
> Your only alternative to decreasing that sensation was not only to cease all contact with me but also to undertake this crusade warning your comatrons against me. Surely, there could have been other alternatives. You could have told me about this sensation of being rubbed up against and we could have talked it through to see what I was doing to cause it and what I could do differently. But, by demanding that I stop emailing you, you closed off any possibility of better communication.
Okay, just for the record, we are going to drag this out once and for all. I don't have your original emails; I was on a different computer waaaay back then and I'd be surprised if it still exists. I can see I will have to save and store for display* future examples, just so that third parties at least can see that we're not making this up.
As I remember it, you first emailed me as a result of a discussion about BDSM on alt.poly. The first creepy thing was that I was participating in that discussion as a not-into-BDSM person and you've been fairly loudly against BDSM the entire time I've known you. I distinctly remember telling you in email that I wasn't comfortable answering the questions you'd asked me and if we didn't find a different subject, our email exchange was at an end. You insisted that BDSM was the only interesting thing we had to talk about, so our exchange ended shortly after that.
So, in summary, I did tell you I was uncomfortable, we did (sort of) talk about what we could do about it but you didn't care about my boundaries.
And I didn't demand you stop emailing me back then; I just searched my mail folders and I happen to have a few emails from you from 2004, and a reply in my sent-mail folder. It's quite innocuous; you asked a question about e-prime (the English language without forms of "to be") and I replied with a web reference.
I seem to have deleted anything subsequent from you (and since I apparently don't ever clean out my sent-mail folder I feel fairly sure I've not sent you email since 2004); I don't remember what specifically happened, and it's quite possible I based my decision on your attitudes and behaviour here on the newsgroup.
You didn't respect my boundaries when I asked you to; I heard too many examples from other women of you not respecting their boundaries; I have much, much better things to do with my time than try to negotiate anything with you when I'm as sure as I am that I know what the outcome will be.
And by now, I have absolutely no respect for you whatsoever; that's pretty fatal to any kind of amicable relationship from my side. Not that you ever seem to care or notice what the other person thinks.
>> Each time, Orlando ended up demonstrating he had no intention of ever respecting any woman's boundaries.
>
> I enjoy it when women erect few boundaries against me. If I am repeatedly being told that I fail to respect a woman's boundaries, I want nothing to do with her because of her ridiculous boundaries in the first place. If someone has boundaries against how much email I send, whether or not we talk on the phone, what subjects get discussed, etc., I don't need them as friends or lovers.
Erm, Orlando, you are spectacularly failing to follow your own supposed principle here. (I am of course not pointing this out for his benefit, but for any random bystanders).
>> From memory, at least one of the 4 in the "female and not emailed" category has moved to "female and emailed" in the meantime, and other women have emailed me since to add themselves to the tally, most recently MJ, which is of course how I found out Orlando had been emailing her.
>
> Burn me at the stake for emailing MJ with information relevant to her situation.
No, I'm just laughing at you and your paranoid belief that I'd found out about MJ because us Evul Bitches are all secretly emailing each other all the time; instead, MJ found you creepy, googled you, found my survey, and contacted me all by herself.
[snip]
> I remember each and every email and telephone interaction I've ever had with an alt.poly woman, no exceptions.
[snip]
These telephone interactions would not by any chance be the result of you asking alt.polyites for their phone numbers, despite your claim elsewhere you have no such numbers?
And if I may, how am I supposed to reconcile that statement of yours with this one:
Message-ID=
>> We have had other discussions on alt.poly (around the time of my 2008
>> survey I think) revealing that he does email so many women he gets some
>> of them mixed up. I thought that particular exchange was _very_
>> revealing of how he thinks of us, and I should try to find it for my
>> records.
>
> What's your point? I remember people based on the frequency and intensity of
> our communication. If I email a hundred women and only exchange a few
> pleasantries, I likely will not remember them or get them confused. But, what's
> your point in all this?
>> Based on some examples of what male posters have said, women responded to, and
> then Orlando responds to the female poster (but not the male), I feel reasonably sure Orlando has killfiled all identified male alt.polyamory posters.
>
> Do you want a medal for that deduction?
No, but I'm very grateful that you're willing to publicly confirm my suspicion. Thank you. In future I won't say "reasonably sure", I'll say you've confirmed as much.
Aqua
* I think I was trained in handling biohazardous materials once, I've certainly got basic radiation safety training.
More ranting, more Orlando. I don't know if I'm entirely fair in the below, but I am really fucking angry at what songbird wrote. You have been warned.
songbird wrote:
> Aqua wrote:
>> songbird wrote:
>>
>>> the back story aspect i don't know
>>> enough about to comment other than
>>> it seems sad and unfortunate on many
>>> levels.
>>
>> Okay, for the benefit of newcomers and any recent lurkers:
> ....
>> When I was first emailed by Orlando, I replied cautiously (knowing his
>> reputation) but determined to make up my own mind. I found his emails
>> quickly became creepy and had that sensation like when you're being
>> rubbed by a frotteur on a crowded bus.
>
> you reach for severe interpretations and
> mix contexts (this is not a physical rubbing space
> nor a public transportation device).
Oh for fuck's sake.
I now understand exactly why you've been killfiled by so many people here, songbird. You're telling me I didn't or shouldn't, have the emotional reaction I had.
Here's another handy hint for any clueless lurkers about social skills: when someone is recounting an emotional reaction, do not deny them their experience.
We could perhaps have a discussion about whether my reaction was fair or justified; I'm inclined to say YES!!!, so we might as well not bother. And I do not say that about every emotional reaction I have, by any means.
> it is a public place of words that has
> hooks to private spaces of words
> which can be altered into other types of
> contact.
>
> obviously, your feelings are your
> feelings, but can you explain to me
> why you'd feel any sense of threat
> from a blind man with no actual
> means of agency?
Oh gee, thanks, for (sort of) acknowledging that what happened inside my head was in fact what happened inside my head, two paragraphs later.
Feminism 101: many women spend large parts of their lives being aware that some men may become unpleasant, may be threats in various forms, and we become very clued-in to hints that a given man might be such.
Can you really not see from how Orlando describes me, describes Serene, describes Pat Kight, describes MJ, etc here in public, how many woman here will feel a sense of threat from Orlando, blind or not? Do you not understand that several former alt.poly posters who had more extensive interactions with him no longer post here because they do not want to deal with his taunting responses, his demonstrated willingness to use confidential information to belittle others?
(I suppose I should be grateful that the biggest digs he can make at me seem to be "feminist" and "Australian". He hasn't even managed to really dig with the "feminist" part: I'm a humourless feminist, because I don't find sexist jokes funny. But yeah, that's part of the reason I've taken on the role I have here; he doesn't seem to have as much to hurt me with as some others.)
So, what kinda bullsh!t are you pulling about "no actual means of agency"? This is a text medium, all we are here to each other is text, Orlando has just as much agency as any of the rest of us, and he chooses to use it in ways that pushes and crosses women's boundaries repeatedly, despite their requests and demands that he stops. He makes the space hostile to women, and women leave, or reduce their participation.
Please do not pull any kind of "sticks and stones" nonsense, because I can find the references for scientific studies that show that what people say about each other does mean something. Words can and do hurt. Abuse can be verbal and emotional rather than just physical (and I understand it often takes much longer to recover from). This situation, despite my physical body being on a different continent from most of the rest of you, does affect me. You are being disengenious to pretend that just because you're not emotionally involved (apparently) that you are the one who is the reasonable and fair judge of this situation.
In feminism/racism 101 that thing "I'm not emotionally involved therefore I'm the reasonable judge" is called "The view from nowhere".
> personal information exchanged
> is always risky as would be any
> openly identifiable other things -- if
> i were a fearful person i would not
> use a valid e-mail address nor would
> i respond to e-mails from people
> i didn't know without checking _FIRST_.
> doing otherwise would mean a
> certain lack of common sense which
> would be worth examining and learning
> from and also pointing to a certain
> lack of self-care/respect which would
> also be worth thinking about.
Sexism 101: Blaming the victim.
> he's always been very open about his
> interactions, his aims, his goals, his
> changing situation with partners, etc.
Oh no he hasn't. As per this recent example, MJ had no idea who he was.
He took advantage of the fact that she didn't know anything about him (and was likely somewhat emotionally vulnerable given what she described in her opening post to alt.poly) to try to get emotionally close to her.
> i know this is a very charitable view
> of him and abstracts the conflicts with
> you and others to the point where you're
> going to disagree with me, but if you
> add to the above hispanic upbringing
> and the social challenges of being blind
> i think you have a little more of an idea
> of why things are as they are and why
> his interactions go astray. he wants
> intimacy with others as much as anyone
> else, but because of his plight he's not
> going to get it by hanging back and
> hoping to be noticed (that doesn't work
> for most men). he's gotta show and be
> seen and his style of showing is loud
> and brash and in your face and many
> women here in a.p. don't like that from
> men period (there are few alpha male
> types here on a regular basis).
Oh bullsh!t. We have had conversations with Orlando about his style on multiple occasions. We have had conversations about how being blind makes his experience different on multiple occasions. That train left the station many years ago now.
And you do realise that real alpha males do not need to push anyone's boundaries, let alone infringe on them? The behaviour Orlando shows is not remotely "alpha", it seems more "desperate" and "bullying" to me.
Also, sexism 101: The benefit of the doubt automatically being extended to the man, not the woman.
> ... he's already
> admitted it and i think he admitted it back
> then too. i don't think he's ever hidden his
> efforts nor could he since others can post
> what he's sent.
No, as far as I remember, he first publicly admitted that he only emailed women as a result of my survey. He'd previously claimed he emailed men too, and he came up with an example who denied it, so I didn't trust his word. Now he's confirmed it, I don't feel the need to run the survey again.
Similarly, since he's now confirmed my suspicion that he killfiles male posters, I don't need to go check over that again either.
Both of those factoids surprised several people when they first were talked about. He's not been open about them because they make him look creepier and that would cramp his style.
>> And so to be blunt there's a point where I don't care whether male
>> alt.poly posters think this is a big problem or not, or Orlando is
>> just "sad and unfortunate". *I* know the story, other women here
>> know the story, and we need to work together to support each other
>> and new women, whether any man gives a f*ck or not.
>
> you sound like just like him
> justifying harm to others.
Yes, and there's dozens of other alt.poly posters complaining about my behaviour on a regular basis. Actually, I know I surf the edge in the case of Orlando and I get reminders from other alt.polyites when I cross it, and I try to do better.
And again, feminism 101: women who are angry at men are not equivalent to men who are angry at women.
And you surely are not an impartial and fair judge of whether I sound just like him or not.
Aqua
Otherwise, I am pretty much over the both of them and from here on, will be concentrating on what to write in the FAQ supplement/warning thing the newsgroup needs.
This entry is originally published at http://aquaeri.dreamwidth.org/80489.html. Please go here to read comments; here to leave a comment (you can use your LJ OpenID).
comments so far.