Arya vs Random Dwarvan Priest
This has been haunting me ever since I was reminded of it recently. It just bugs me that much! I need to spork/vent over it and get it out of my head. >.<
. . . and don't worry. I'm complaining about the execution of the scene.
In chapter 14 of Eldest, Celbedeil, Eragon is visiting some dwarf village and being toured around by a priest named Grimstborith. The priest is teaching Eragon the basics of the dwarves' religion since Eragon was "adopted" by Hrothgar the king of the dwarves, and this is rather reasonable to do since Eragon needs to understand the people he's not only taken in by but also now representing. If Eragon is being converted then it's his own fault due to his narcissistic nature of absorbing whatever he finds to be an authority. Bear in mind that the dwarves in this village are very hostile to Eragon (not that anything comes from that) and the dwarves in the temple Eragon and Arya are staying in are sheltering them despite the hostility they will obviously get for sheltering these strangers. Arya comes in and starts debating and picking fights with Grimstborith over religion, completely unprovoked. Literally.
[Eragon] heard a door open and close and turned to see Arya approaching from the far end of the gallery. She scanned the wall with the same blank expression Eragon had seen her use when confronting the Council of Elders. Whatever her specific emotions, he sense that she found the situation distasteful. (Eldest, p. 119)
See that? Just walked right on in. The priest and Arya exchange greetings and Arya says "You have been educating Eragon in your mythology?"
Now, I don't know about you, but I generally find it extremely rude to call someone's religion a "mythology." Then again, this might be a case of thesaurus abuse.
Grimstborith basically repeats my above point about Eragon needing to understand the faith that the people he's now a part of all in one sentence.
Arya's reply? "Yet comprehension does not imply belief." She fingered the pillar of an archway. "Nor does it mean that those who purvey such beliefs do so for more than . . . material gain."
What Arya the diplomat should have said? "Yes, you have a fair point. Eragon needs to understand your people and their beliefs. What I ask, however, is that you allow him the freedom to choose whether to believe what you teach or not." It brings up valid concerns rather than an unnecessary provocation. It also should've been done in private, between Grimstborith and Arya only rather than in front of Eragon. With Eragon with them, Arya is challenging Grimstborith's authority when, really, this is very uncalled for.
However, this is just the beginning of a rapid downward spiral into a Strawman's Argument.
"You would deny the sacrifices my clan makes to bring comfort to our brethren?"
"I deny nothing, only ask what good might be accomplished if your wealth were spread among the needy, the starving, the homeless, or even to buy supplies for the Varden. Instead, you've piled it into a monument to your own wishful thinking."
1) A good counterpoint to this would be to point out how the elves just sit in their forests and keep themselves holed up with all their technology and powerful mages rather than sending said technology and powerful mages to the Varden and helping that side at least hole up in case Galbatorix comes flying down on his big black dragon, raining fire everywhere. I mean, come on! They live in a FOREST! Their cities are made of tinder wood! Obviously they found a way to keep Galbatorix from turning them all into crispy critters! If they decided to share some of their wealth, technology, and power with nearby villages and the Varden, maybe the Varden wouldn't be so desperate for help!
2) For most churches, donations are there to help a church keep afloat. That money being "for God" is just semantics. I don't know about ALL of a church's possible income, but I do know where that offering money generally goes. It goes to fund up-keeping, repairs, pay the minister and the staff (and it's a VERY meager amount), help along charity works, fund projects for the youth group, pay for the food that the Sunday school kids and the adults eat between services, pay for the cheap wine and grape juice and bread that's served during communion, and other miscellaneous community-centered things. Offerings also help the congregation feel like they're contributing to the church even if they don't/can't help the church in other activities directly (I certainly felt like that as a little child when my parents gave me a bill to put in the offering plate).
So no, that money doesn't just get "piled into a monument to [our] own wishful thinking." It actually does serve a practical purpose. A single, small church has too many bills just to pile on cash like a dragon's hoard, no matter if it's based in the medieval times or present day.
And the Strawman's Argument ends with this:
"Enough!" The dwarf clenched his fists, his face mottled. "Without us, the crops would wither in drought. Rivers and lakes would flood. Our flocks would give birth to one-eyed beasts. The very heavens would shatter under the gods' rage!" Arya smiled. "Only our prayers and service prevent that from happening. If not for Helzvog, where--" (Eldest, p. 119-120)
Gotta love the little emphasis to how THEIR prayers and service prevent all these disasters from happening. Then you gotta love how Grimstborith immediately starts raging at Arya about his firm beliefs being challenged and turning his side into nothing but sound and fury. Also, I was going to make that list all one sentence with commas out of habit so it'd all flow together. If not that, then at least add exclamation points more often if it HAS to be stagnated like it is here.
You also gotta love Arya's little uppity smile right there as Grimstborith turns into a raging Strawman in an unnecessary argument that SHE started for no reason other than to piss people off. IN A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE NATIVES ARE LIKELY TO KILL YOU IF YOU GET KICKED OUT OF THAT TEMPLE.
How did Arya become a diplomat?
Well, if you think that Arya is interrupting Grimstborith right there, you're pretty much wrong. In true Paolini fashion, we just get the easy way out of this unnecessary religion flame war.
Eragon soon lost track of the argument. He did not understand Arya's vague criticisms of Durgrimst Quan, but he gathered from Gannel's responses that, in some indirect way, she had implied that the dwarf gods did not exist, questioned the mental capacity of every dwarf who entered a temple, and pointed out what she took to be flaws in their reasoning--all in a pleasant and polite voice.
After a few minutes, Arya raised her hand, stopping Gannel, and said, "That is the difference between us, Grimstborith. You devote yourself to that which you believe to be true but cannot prove. There, we must agree to disagree." (Eldest, p. 120)
Knowing what we know about Paolini's mouthpiece race, Arya was supposed to be the cool voice of reason in the face of a bunch of stupid superstitious natives. I'd forgive this hypocrisy and take the retcons in Brisingr over the existence of Helzvog if the elves had flaws, but they're just as perfect as SMeyer's sparkly pricks of vampires and therefor are always right. Damn hippy elves. The only thing they have going for them is their multiple orgies without the consequences of broken hearts, possible rape, STDs, and unwanted pregnancies.
Also, no one can say that Arya doesn't know that she can't afford to make enemies of the people that are SHELTERING Eragon and her. Why? Because right after she tells Grimstborith that they "must agree to disagree" (WHEN SHE STARTED THE ENTIRE THING FOR NO REASON ALDJFIUENASILEJFISALJFIES) she turns to Eragon and says:
"Az Sweldn rak Anhuin has inflamed Tarnag's citizens against you. Udin believes, as do I, that it would be best for you to remain behind his walls until we leave."
I don't think Tarnag's citizens need much help getting inflamed with Arya around. Some diplomat.
No matter what side of the religion debate you're on, whether you're an atheist, agnostic, or follow some sort of religious faith, whether you're sympathetic to religions or despise how organized religious institutions act or somewhere in the middle, this small section is a very bad portrayal of the entire argument. It's shallow, unnecessary, and flame-worthy. Without even realizing it, Paolini has shown the Conceited Atheist VS the Fanatic Christian debate. Basically, the religious version of the Mac vs PC Parody on Newgrounds. All because he can't be bothered to actually ask a religious person WHY they follow that system of beliefs as they do and respect both opinions. Know what, that Mac ad parody is a very good description of the entire argument we just read.
Arya: I'm so conceited, I shit light.
Grimstborith: DUUUUURRRRRR
Either way, I hate it when Elves Are Always Right About Religion (yes, they do come in more sizes than Atheist). I don't know what you guys are gonna do, but I think sometime soon I'll order me a cheeseburger with ten-piece chicken nuggets from McDonald's and think about how much I love Jesus while I eat my meal on a wooden park bench.
. . . and don't worry. I'm complaining about the execution of the scene.
In chapter 14 of Eldest, Celbedeil, Eragon is visiting some dwarf village and being toured around by a priest named Grimstborith. The priest is teaching Eragon the basics of the dwarves' religion since Eragon was "adopted" by Hrothgar the king of the dwarves, and this is rather reasonable to do since Eragon needs to understand the people he's not only taken in by but also now representing. If Eragon is being converted then it's his own fault due to his narcissistic nature of absorbing whatever he finds to be an authority. Bear in mind that the dwarves in this village are very hostile to Eragon (not that anything comes from that) and the dwarves in the temple Eragon and Arya are staying in are sheltering them despite the hostility they will obviously get for sheltering these strangers. Arya comes in and starts debating and picking fights with Grimstborith over religion, completely unprovoked. Literally.
[Eragon] heard a door open and close and turned to see Arya approaching from the far end of the gallery. She scanned the wall with the same blank expression Eragon had seen her use when confronting the Council of Elders. Whatever her specific emotions, he sense that she found the situation distasteful. (Eldest, p. 119)
See that? Just walked right on in. The priest and Arya exchange greetings and Arya says "You have been educating Eragon in your mythology?"
Now, I don't know about you, but I generally find it extremely rude to call someone's religion a "mythology." Then again, this might be a case of thesaurus abuse.
Grimstborith basically repeats my above point about Eragon needing to understand the faith that the people he's now a part of all in one sentence.
Arya's reply? "Yet comprehension does not imply belief." She fingered the pillar of an archway. "Nor does it mean that those who purvey such beliefs do so for more than . . . material gain."
What Arya the diplomat should have said? "Yes, you have a fair point. Eragon needs to understand your people and their beliefs. What I ask, however, is that you allow him the freedom to choose whether to believe what you teach or not." It brings up valid concerns rather than an unnecessary provocation. It also should've been done in private, between Grimstborith and Arya only rather than in front of Eragon. With Eragon with them, Arya is challenging Grimstborith's authority when, really, this is very uncalled for.
However, this is just the beginning of a rapid downward spiral into a Strawman's Argument.
"You would deny the sacrifices my clan makes to bring comfort to our brethren?"
"I deny nothing, only ask what good might be accomplished if your wealth were spread among the needy, the starving, the homeless, or even to buy supplies for the Varden. Instead, you've piled it into a monument to your own wishful thinking."
1) A good counterpoint to this would be to point out how the elves just sit in their forests and keep themselves holed up with all their technology and powerful mages rather than sending said technology and powerful mages to the Varden and helping that side at least hole up in case Galbatorix comes flying down on his big black dragon, raining fire everywhere. I mean, come on! They live in a FOREST! Their cities are made of tinder wood! Obviously they found a way to keep Galbatorix from turning them all into crispy critters! If they decided to share some of their wealth, technology, and power with nearby villages and the Varden, maybe the Varden wouldn't be so desperate for help!
2) For most churches, donations are there to help a church keep afloat. That money being "for God" is just semantics. I don't know about ALL of a church's possible income, but I do know where that offering money generally goes. It goes to fund up-keeping, repairs, pay the minister and the staff (and it's a VERY meager amount), help along charity works, fund projects for the youth group, pay for the food that the Sunday school kids and the adults eat between services, pay for the cheap wine and grape juice and bread that's served during communion, and other miscellaneous community-centered things. Offerings also help the congregation feel like they're contributing to the church even if they don't/can't help the church in other activities directly (I certainly felt like that as a little child when my parents gave me a bill to put in the offering plate).
So no, that money doesn't just get "piled into a monument to [our] own wishful thinking." It actually does serve a practical purpose. A single, small church has too many bills just to pile on cash like a dragon's hoard, no matter if it's based in the medieval times or present day.
And the Strawman's Argument ends with this:
"Enough!" The dwarf clenched his fists, his face mottled. "Without us, the crops would wither in drought. Rivers and lakes would flood. Our flocks would give birth to one-eyed beasts. The very heavens would shatter under the gods' rage!" Arya smiled. "Only our prayers and service prevent that from happening. If not for Helzvog, where--" (Eldest, p. 119-120)
Gotta love the little emphasis to how THEIR prayers and service prevent all these disasters from happening. Then you gotta love how Grimstborith immediately starts raging at Arya about his firm beliefs being challenged and turning his side into nothing but sound and fury. Also, I was going to make that list all one sentence with commas out of habit so it'd all flow together. If not that, then at least add exclamation points more often if it HAS to be stagnated like it is here.
You also gotta love Arya's little uppity smile right there as Grimstborith turns into a raging Strawman in an unnecessary argument that SHE started for no reason other than to piss people off. IN A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE NATIVES ARE LIKELY TO KILL YOU IF YOU GET KICKED OUT OF THAT TEMPLE.
How did Arya become a diplomat?
Well, if you think that Arya is interrupting Grimstborith right there, you're pretty much wrong. In true Paolini fashion, we just get the easy way out of this unnecessary religion flame war.
Eragon soon lost track of the argument. He did not understand Arya's vague criticisms of Durgrimst Quan, but he gathered from Gannel's responses that, in some indirect way, she had implied that the dwarf gods did not exist, questioned the mental capacity of every dwarf who entered a temple, and pointed out what she took to be flaws in their reasoning--all in a pleasant and polite voice.
After a few minutes, Arya raised her hand, stopping Gannel, and said, "That is the difference between us, Grimstborith. You devote yourself to that which you believe to be true but cannot prove. There, we must agree to disagree." (Eldest, p. 120)
Knowing what we know about Paolini's mouthpiece race, Arya was supposed to be the cool voice of reason in the face of a bunch of stupid superstitious natives. I'd forgive this hypocrisy and take the retcons in Brisingr over the existence of Helzvog if the elves had flaws, but they're just as perfect as SMeyer's sparkly pricks of vampires and therefor are always right. Damn hippy elves. The only thing they have going for them is their multiple orgies without the consequences of broken hearts, possible rape, STDs, and unwanted pregnancies.
Also, no one can say that Arya doesn't know that she can't afford to make enemies of the people that are SHELTERING Eragon and her. Why? Because right after she tells Grimstborith that they "must agree to disagree" (WHEN SHE STARTED THE ENTIRE THING FOR NO REASON ALDJFIUENASILEJFISALJFIES) she turns to Eragon and says:
"Az Sweldn rak Anhuin has inflamed Tarnag's citizens against you. Udin believes, as do I, that it would be best for you to remain behind his walls until we leave."
I don't think Tarnag's citizens need much help getting inflamed with Arya around. Some diplomat.
No matter what side of the religion debate you're on, whether you're an atheist, agnostic, or follow some sort of religious faith, whether you're sympathetic to religions or despise how organized religious institutions act or somewhere in the middle, this small section is a very bad portrayal of the entire argument. It's shallow, unnecessary, and flame-worthy. Without even realizing it, Paolini has shown the Conceited Atheist VS the Fanatic Christian debate. Basically, the religious version of the Mac vs PC Parody on Newgrounds. All because he can't be bothered to actually ask a religious person WHY they follow that system of beliefs as they do and respect both opinions. Know what, that Mac ad parody is a very good description of the entire argument we just read.
Arya: I'm so conceited, I shit light.
Grimstborith: DUUUUURRRRRR
Either way, I hate it when Elves Are Always Right About Religion (yes, they do come in more sizes than Atheist). I don't know what you guys are gonna do, but I think sometime soon I'll order me a cheeseburger with ten-piece chicken nuggets from McDonald's and think about how much I love Jesus while I eat my meal on a wooden park bench.