I shall just make a quick reply and continue later when I have more time. I see nothing wrong in cutting the quota for skilled migration. Why do we need to get people from other countries when we can equip the people here with skills or employ the people with the right skills? I rather take in refugees who are in desperate need to have a home than skilled migrants who can only contribute economically, stick to themselves and not much else. I assume that you have not been part of working with refugees to help them assimilate or been to any detention centres and that is why you have such views of refugees and why I think you have implied that the detention centres may be more comfortable that the media portrayed. Assimilation takes years, especially when there are issues of displacement involved. The Vietnamese refugees took years to assimilate, which is understandable but look at them now. Australia is home and for those who came here as children, Australia is the only home they even known and remember. The same goes for recent refugees. It is a process. I am still assimilating. It doesn't matter in which areas or what ones definition of assimilation is, the point is it takes a lot of time so I don't think it is fair that you claim that some refugees just don't assimilate or choose not to. How many years and how well do you know them? I also find it very sad that you think refugees means they might not get a job or seek to improve themselves. The fact that they have gone through shit makes them even more determined to succeed. Again, I am going to assume that the refugees that you have met or talking about are relatively new members of the Australian community, still trying to get their head around being part of the community instead of being in the detention centres or a war torn country. As for your example of assimilation and language, I honestly don't consider getting sarcasm being able to assimilate. If you know somebody has problem with the English language, you try your best to make others understand you instead of using sarcasm and hoping they will get your wit. If they don't get it or miss how witty you are, then you cannot blame them and conclude that there is a language barrier for them. It is not very fair.
They will always be dodgy people everywhere in the world. The utopia that you and I want, the one where you said the country or the system is not used does not exist. There will always be somebody using the system or being dodgy. For the record, I have to add that there are many skilled migrants, foreign spouses of Australians, business migrant who used and misused the system so I hope you realise and acknowledge that the refugees are not the only so-called opportunists or bad people. I think you need to take people as they are and not as refugees or economic migrants, etc. Case by case basis.
I became a citizen recently and at my citizenship ceremony, I saw so many refugees crying upon taking their oath. These people finally have a safe home, one where they are proud to contribute to. 2 that I spoke to are halfway through their degree and one is a teacher. I also spoke to 2 whose English are not very good and they said they are having English classes and will continue to do so until they are satisfied with their English and so they can help with other refugees who come in the future. Then there was this woman who was a skilled migrant and when I asked her how come she took 8 years after becoming a PR before deciding to become a citizen, she told me she actually never wanted to become one. The only reason why she is about to take her oath and become a citizen is because she wants to go back to uni and don't want to pay high fees! What she said annoyed me tremendously but I quickly reminded myself (well, it was really my husband who was trying to calm me down) that there are many of us there who took the oath seriously and are not misusing the country. Maybe you can look at these refugees you have been complaining about and think the same. They are many refugees who are determined, hardworking people who wants to make Australia their home and be a contributing member of society and are not ripping Australia off.
I'll continue later. My son is asking for attention. :)
I forgot to write my name but I'm sure you know that the above reply was from me.
ok let's continue.
RE: "What boggles me is that it is far easier to reach out and get help as a refugee than it is for a born-bred Aussie who terribly needs help."
This is highly untrue. Such a statement is not fair on the people who run this country and not fair on the people that live here. If it so far easier to get help as a refugee then we won't have refugees stranded in detention centres for years and years, and I'm not talking 1 or 2 years. You mention homelessness. My question is what makes you think the government is not doing anything to help homeless people. The issue of homelessness is ongoing. Like most things in life, it is not black and white. If you say it is because there are still many homeless people out in the streets, then that is not a good gauge. The government (at council, state and federal levels) are constantly trying to do something about homelessness. Of course there will never be a solution that will fit everyone (the same applies for a lot of issues in life, if not all). Just for that reason alone, it explains why there are still homeless people. I have a group of friends who are in the community development line who work with homeless people and people who live in rooming in facilities. A lot of times, people who have been offered housing choose not to accept it or their circumstances prevent them from accepting the help that has been given to them. Most homeless people are homeless not only because they have financial problems but also because they have mental health issues. So even if the government provide state housing or rooming in services to them, they might not accept the help because of their mental health issues. Compared to a lot of other countries, Australia provide great support for people with mental health issues. There are also many organizations out there like Beyond Blue who are doing good work. Of course, a lot can be improved and there are many good people out there who are trying to improve the situation with regards to mental health issues. Then there are other circumstances such as a recent one that is happening in the area where I live. This homeless man has been offered the rooming in service provided by the council but he has declined it and chose to live in the streets because the rooming in service does not allow pets and he has a pet dog. As much as I understand that he cannot part with his pet dog and would rather not have a roof over his head, I can also understand why pets are not allowed. Like I said before, there is no one solution that will make everyone happy. Homeless people get financial support too so again your statement is not true and not fair. There is always room for improvement but again, I have to emphasise how unfair and untrue your statement is.
There are many issues in this country that I think can be improved, like Aboriginal health for instance, but again I won't go as far as to say that the government is not helping or doing much for Australian born and that refugees get more help or easier for them to get help because that is not true.
RE: "it saddens me that it seems and feels like more and more refugees are being granted temporary statuses and then PR, and then Citizenship (PR to Citizenship is done on the mainland) while others with something to offer the country immediately are denied that possibility"
Again, this is a very unfair and untrue statement. What makes you think refugees have nothing to offer Australia. I know refugees who are doctors. Australia is not that stupid to just believe when a refugee says "I was a nurse" or "I was a doctor" and give them jobs. Of course they have to prove their qualifications and their skills before they can get the job. So there are refugees who can offer Australia as much as a skilled migrant can.
If you go and find out the percentages, you will realise that it is easier for skilled migrants to get their PRs and citizenship than refugees. Skilled migrants don't have to wait as long and don't have to live in detention centres while their claim get assessed.
That statement also is very elitist in my opinion. If these skilled migrants are so skilled and in demand and can offer so much more, why aren't they offering their skills to their own home country. If these skilled migrants are so skilled and crucial to Australia, then in time they will be offered PRs and citizenship. Also, I don't know what you mean by "being denied the possibility". From my understanding, there is a clear process a skilled migrant has to go through. If they arrive here without a PR and came on only a skilled migrant visa, then they have to live and worked here for 2 years before they can apply for PR and I have not met one who have had their PR application declined. Of course if your documents are not in order, you haven't worked and live here for 2 years or the people at the Immigration department finds out something dodgy about you, then your PR application won't be approved. Then after that you have to be a PR for 2 years before you can apply for citizenship. This process is clear to a skilled migrant and again, I have never met anyone who has been "denied the possibility" so I am not really sure what you are trying to imply.
You have mention helping and prioritising Australian born and bred. Can't you see that taking in the same number of skilled migrants is not helping or prioritising Australian born and Australian born can actually argue that these skilled migrants are taking their jobs? Also, don't you wonder why the government has removed a few occupations from the list of occupations for skilled migration? So many people are just using or rather misusing the system, not just this minority of refugees you have been talking about and the the department of immigration is doing their best to curb it.
Oh and with regards to the tax, again all I have to say is there are bound to be people who don't actually need the benefits they are receiving, but for every one who misuse or take advantage of the system, there are more people who genuinely need help. I have said this to many people before, if a person has problem with paying tax here and with where their tax is going, then don't live in a country like Australia, a country that provides welfare. Live in Singapore or America. Even in Singapore or America, they will be people who complain about where the tax they pay is going to. There will always be people who are unhappy about where their money goes. Also, tax-payers money go everywhere, from transportation, to Medicare, to public schools, etc. It doesn't only go to the few dodgy refugees you have mentioned. I was upset when John Howard used "my money" to pay for his dodgy WorkChoices ads but at the same time, I also know that there are also many people who are benefiting from the tax I have paid. Like I said in my first reply, everyone pay taxes, we get some back, either through better roads, transport system, Medicare, public schools etc.
Thanks for your clarifications about the failed states and rebuilding nations.
I see you are firmly entrenched in your compassion, which is a good thing and I am both glad and proud to call you a friend. Both our experiences has made us different people with different opinions, and that is fine by me.
As I have said before, I am willing to allow that not all the people that I have seen is an indication of the rest of the people about to come in through the doors. I am, however, reasonably wary. Wary, not because I would lose my job or upset about losing half my tax returns to them (amongst other things of course), but wary because it can mean alot of things - socially, economically and more.
of course, when some plans work out (like when I suggested mixing refugees in with small communities or planned communities, apparently it is in place in some areas like this), it is of course for the best interest of everyone involved.
But, even the best laid plans often goes to waste, because humans are, after all, unpredictable.
Therefore, when I got worried for the skilled migration process, I am indeed thinking of not myself but the country itself as a whole. As the statistics point out, we need more doctors and nurses amongst many other things as the system is currently heavily burdened. There are fewer students graduating from all these courses, not to mention actually end up working in the local field, than there are those numbers in the statistics.
Allowing a good number of skilled migration, whether we like it or not, alleviates the problems. although, to "stick to themselves and not much else" is also as much an assumption as mine is about refugees, this is a benefit on both sides of the fence.
Having refugees come in and equipping them with skills takes time, and, since we are talking about human rights, we can't force them into definite skills that each state definitely needs. In my state for example, I see that most new refugees goes into cab driving, cleaning or aged care nursing. Aged Care nursing is fine, because it's needed. But, we are completely over-run by cabs and it is destroying the economy for the more established cab drivers.
I can't say much about cleaning since I am not there.
I do not just think that because they are refugees, they would refuse to look for work or look for work properly. This is not a baseless assumption that I attribute to refugees. quite the opposite, a few years ago, actually. As I have mentioned in a previous post and another post elsewhere, I work with them and my aunt also works with them in another capacity, and yet someone else I know work with them in yet another capacity.
This doesn't mean it's a definitive thing either, but as I have mentioned, the percentages are shocking. Working with those I work with, they are generally lazy. When they go to certain places for interviews, despite recommendations and even grooming help, they often turn up for interviews completely jeopardising their chance at a job.
that's just an example, mind you, and there's more where those come from.
it's true, I don't work in detention centres nor is part of a project to help assimilate them into the society, neither have I known these people for long. I did try and volunteer for it, and was never called up. I know assimilation takes time and effort, like you, I myself (to a certain degree) is still assimilating. When I used the example of sarcasm, it was just an example. poor perhaps, but an example notheless. it wasn't to indicate an elitist view of how piss poor their english is, but more of... well, in view of the situation back when it happened (and wasnt between me and someone else either), it was more of a "i don't understand and don't want to" from the recipient of the sarcasm at that time.
The thing is, to not want to assimilate is quite often a conscious choice. it's a choice when they don't want to communicate with others, when they threaten bodily harm to just about everyone and, as you and I would know that communication is not just words, when you physically set out signals that you would not wish to be a part of anything around you except what you choose.
I will just stop here now so i can rest more before work.
Thanks, Cheryl. It is nice to be able to discuss issues like this without having hard feelings and to be able to agree to disagree. You are right, different experiences make us different people with different opinions. I constantly remind myself that I have to be objective about the world but it is difficult to do so about certain issues and often, our experiences mould our opinions. So now, I constantly remind myself that there are good eggs and bad eggs and therefore, I cannot stereotype. Such an obvious thing but often, I get too idealistic and forget reality.
By the way, what happened with the student visa and what do you mean you breached it?
Have a good rest. I am going to have a rest too. Not feeling well.
I see nothing wrong in cutting the quota for skilled migration. Why do we need to get people from other countries when we can equip the people here with skills or employ the people with the right skills? I rather take in refugees who are in desperate need to have a home than skilled migrants who can only contribute economically, stick to themselves and not much else.
I assume that you have not been part of working with refugees to help them assimilate or been to any detention centres and that is why you have such views of refugees and why I think you have implied that the detention centres may be more comfortable that the media portrayed. Assimilation takes years, especially when there are issues of displacement involved. The Vietnamese refugees took years to assimilate, which is understandable but look at them now. Australia is home and for those who came here as children, Australia is the only home they even known and remember. The same goes for recent refugees. It is a process. I am still assimilating. It doesn't matter in which areas or what ones definition of assimilation is, the point is it takes a lot of time so I don't think it is fair that you claim that some refugees just don't assimilate or choose not to. How many years and how well do you know them? I also find it very sad that you think refugees means they might not get a job or seek to improve themselves. The fact that they have gone through shit makes them even more determined to succeed. Again, I am going to assume that the refugees that you have met or talking about are relatively new members of the Australian community, still trying to get their head around being part of the community instead of being in the detention centres or a war torn country. As for your example of assimilation and language, I honestly don't consider getting sarcasm being able to assimilate. If you know somebody has problem with the English language, you try your best to make others understand you instead of using sarcasm and hoping they will get your wit. If they don't get it or miss how witty you are, then you cannot blame them and conclude that there is a language barrier for them. It is not very fair.
They will always be dodgy people everywhere in the world. The utopia that you and I want, the one where you said the country or the system is not used does not exist. There will always be somebody using the system or being dodgy. For the record, I have to add that there are many skilled migrants, foreign spouses of Australians, business migrant who used and misused the system so I hope you realise and acknowledge that the refugees are not the only so-called opportunists or bad people. I think you need to take people as they are and not as refugees or economic migrants, etc. Case by case basis.
I became a citizen recently and at my citizenship ceremony, I saw so many refugees crying upon taking their oath. These people finally have a safe home, one where they are proud to contribute to. 2 that I spoke to are halfway through their degree and one is a teacher. I also spoke to 2 whose English are not very good and they said they are having English classes and will continue to do so until they are satisfied with their English and so they can help with other refugees who come in the future.
Then there was this woman who was a skilled migrant and when I asked her how come she took 8 years after becoming a PR before deciding to become a citizen, she told me she actually never wanted to become one. The only reason why she is about to take her oath and become a citizen is because she wants to go back to uni and don't want to pay high fees! What she said annoyed me tremendously but I quickly reminded myself (well, it was really my husband who was trying to calm me down) that there are many of us there who took the oath seriously and are not misusing the country. Maybe you can look at these refugees you have been complaining about and think the same. They are many refugees who are determined, hardworking people who wants to make Australia their home and be a contributing member of society and are not ripping Australia off.
I'll continue later. My son is asking for attention. :)
Reply
ok let's continue.
RE: "What boggles me is that it is far easier to reach out and get help as a refugee than it is for a born-bred Aussie who terribly needs help."
This is highly untrue. Such a statement is not fair on the people who run this country and not fair on the people that live here. If it so far easier to get help as a refugee then we won't have refugees stranded in detention centres for years and years, and I'm not talking 1 or 2 years.
You mention homelessness. My question is what makes you think the government is not doing anything to help homeless people. The issue of homelessness is ongoing. Like most things in life, it is not black and white. If you say it is because there are still many homeless people out in the streets, then that is not a good gauge. The government (at council, state and federal levels) are constantly trying to do something about homelessness. Of course there will never be a solution that will fit everyone (the same applies for a lot of issues in life, if not all). Just for that reason alone, it explains why there are still homeless people. I have a group of friends who are in the community development line who work with homeless people and people who live in rooming in facilities. A lot of times, people who have been offered housing choose not to accept it or their circumstances prevent them from accepting the help that has been given to them. Most homeless people are homeless not only because they have financial problems but also because they have mental health issues. So even if the government provide state housing or rooming in services to them, they might not accept the help because of their mental health issues. Compared to a lot of other countries, Australia provide great support for people with mental health issues. There are also many organizations out there like Beyond Blue who are doing good work. Of course, a lot can be improved and there are many good people out there who are trying to improve the situation with regards to mental health issues. Then there are other circumstances such as a recent one that is happening in the area where I live. This homeless man has been offered the rooming in service provided by the council but he has declined it and chose to live in the streets because the rooming in service does not allow pets and he has a pet dog. As much as I understand that he cannot part with his pet dog and would rather not have a roof over his head, I can also understand why pets are not allowed. Like I said before, there is no one solution that will make everyone happy. Homeless people get financial support too so again your statement is not true and not fair. There is always room for improvement but again, I have to emphasise how unfair and untrue your statement is.
There are many issues in this country that I think can be improved, like Aboriginal health for instance, but again I won't go as far as to say that the government is not helping or doing much for Australian born and that refugees get more help or easier for them to get help because that is not true.
Reply
Again, this is a very unfair and untrue statement. What makes you think refugees have nothing to offer Australia. I know refugees who are doctors. Australia is not that stupid to just believe when a refugee says "I was a nurse" or "I was a doctor" and give them jobs. Of course they have to prove their qualifications and their skills before they can get the job. So there are refugees who can offer Australia as much as a skilled migrant can.
If you go and find out the percentages, you will realise that it is easier for skilled migrants to get their PRs and citizenship than refugees. Skilled migrants don't have to wait as long and don't have to live in detention centres while their claim get assessed.
That statement also is very elitist in my opinion. If these skilled migrants are so skilled and in demand and can offer so much more, why aren't they offering their skills to their own home country. If these skilled migrants are so skilled and crucial to Australia, then in time they will be offered PRs and citizenship. Also, I don't know what you mean by "being denied the possibility". From my understanding, there is a clear process a skilled migrant has to go through. If they arrive here without a PR and came on only a skilled migrant visa, then they have to live and worked here for 2 years before they can apply for PR and I have not met one who have had their PR application declined. Of course if your documents are not in order, you haven't worked and live here for 2 years or the people at the Immigration department finds out something dodgy about you, then your PR application won't be approved. Then after that you have to be a PR for 2 years before you can apply for citizenship. This process is clear to a skilled migrant and again, I have never met anyone who has been "denied the possibility" so I am not really sure what you are trying to imply.
You have mention helping and prioritising Australian born and bred. Can't you see that taking in the same number of skilled migrants is not helping or prioritising Australian born and Australian born can actually argue that these skilled migrants are taking their jobs? Also, don't you wonder why the government has removed a few occupations from the list of occupations for skilled migration? So many people are just using or rather misusing the system, not just this minority of refugees you have been talking about and the the department of immigration is doing their best to curb it.
Oh and with regards to the tax, again all I have to say is there are bound to be people who don't actually need the benefits they are receiving, but for every one who misuse or take advantage of the system, there are more people who genuinely need help. I have said this to many people before, if a person has problem with paying tax here and with where their tax is going, then don't live in a country like Australia, a country that provides welfare. Live in Singapore or America. Even in Singapore or America, they will be people who complain about where the tax they pay is going to. There will always be people who are unhappy about where their money goes. Also, tax-payers money go everywhere, from transportation, to Medicare, to public schools, etc. It doesn't only go to the few dodgy refugees you have mentioned. I was upset when John Howard used "my money" to pay for his dodgy WorkChoices ads but at the same time, I also know that there are also many people who are benefiting from the tax I have paid. Like I said in my first reply, everyone pay taxes, we get some back, either through better roads, transport system, Medicare, public schools etc.
Thanks for your clarifications about the failed states and rebuilding nations.
Reply
As I have said before, I am willing to allow that not all the people that I have seen is an indication of the rest of the people about to come in through the doors. I am, however, reasonably wary. Wary, not because I would lose my job or upset about losing half my tax returns to them (amongst other things of course), but wary because it can mean alot of things - socially, economically and more.
of course, when some plans work out (like when I suggested mixing refugees in with small communities or planned communities, apparently it is in place in some areas like this), it is of course for the best interest of everyone involved.
But, even the best laid plans often goes to waste, because humans are, after all, unpredictable.
Therefore, when I got worried for the skilled migration process, I am indeed thinking of not myself but the country itself as a whole. As the statistics point out, we need more doctors and nurses amongst many other things as the system is currently heavily burdened. There are fewer students graduating from all these courses, not to mention actually end up working in the local field, than there are those numbers in the statistics.
Allowing a good number of skilled migration, whether we like it or not, alleviates the problems. although, to "stick to themselves and not much else" is also as much an assumption as mine is about refugees, this is a benefit on both sides of the fence.
Having refugees come in and equipping them with skills takes time, and, since we are talking about human rights, we can't force them into definite skills that each state definitely needs. In my state for example, I see that most new refugees goes into cab driving, cleaning or aged care nursing. Aged Care nursing is fine, because it's needed. But, we are completely over-run by cabs and it is destroying the economy for the more established cab drivers.
I can't say much about cleaning since I am not there.
I do not just think that because they are refugees, they would refuse to look for work or look for work properly. This is not a baseless assumption that I attribute to refugees. quite the opposite, a few years ago, actually. As I have mentioned in a previous post and another post elsewhere, I work with them and my aunt also works with them in another capacity, and yet someone else I know work with them in yet another capacity.
This doesn't mean it's a definitive thing either, but as I have mentioned, the percentages are shocking. Working with those I work with, they are generally lazy. When they go to certain places for interviews, despite recommendations and even grooming help, they often turn up for interviews completely jeopardising their chance at a job.
that's just an example, mind you, and there's more where those come from.
it's true, I don't work in detention centres nor is part of a project to help assimilate them into the society, neither have I known these people for long. I did try and volunteer for it, and was never called up. I know assimilation takes time and effort, like you, I myself (to a certain degree) is still assimilating. When I used the example of sarcasm, it was just an example. poor perhaps, but an example notheless. it wasn't to indicate an elitist view of how piss poor their english is, but more of... well, in view of the situation back when it happened (and wasnt between me and someone else either), it was more of a "i don't understand and don't want to" from the recipient of the sarcasm at that time.
The thing is, to not want to assimilate is quite often a conscious choice. it's a choice when they don't want to communicate with others, when they threaten bodily harm to just about everyone and, as you and I would know that communication is not just words, when you physically set out signals that you would not wish to be a part of anything around you except what you choose.
I will just stop here now so i can rest more before work.
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By the way, what happened with the student visa and what do you mean you breached it?
Have a good rest. I am going to have a rest too. Not feeling well.
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