Thanks a Lot for Putting the Words in my Mouth
This concerns Sephyism, and I know I said I wasn't going to say anymore on it, but apparently, people have been seriously misinterpreting what I've been saying. And it's not just in response to the last thing I posted there, but it's been consistently happening whenever I make a point that somehow ends up into some big argument. Actually, this is one of the biggest reasons why I've left; there's no longer really a point in posting an argument in a debating manner. Sure, I debate in the debate sections too, but it's really all in good fun, and people don't usually go away offended from them. But whenever I debate in Sephyism recently, all I get is I'm having the words being put in my mouth, and people are saying things about my arguments that aren't really what I mean to say. I might be wrong about this, but I feel as if this twisting of my arguments have been done on purpose because I have had to repeat some of my points which have been ignored or seriously misinterpreted several times, if not, more, and some fallacious assumptions about my arguments or my character have been made, and it's really dragging the debate down quite a bit. And so that you all don't think I'm some bigot trying to force everyone to believe Sephiroth is a particular character or whatever it is you think of me, I'm posting this up. Don't think less of me just because I have a different perspective of Sephiroth than "what's meant to be". And in fact, that wasn't even the most important part of my posts if you've been paying attention anyways. But I'll get on to that later. I believed that most of these points, and some of the contradictions that some of my "opponents" have been making would have been clear, but it's obvious they're not. So let's see what misinterpretations people are making of me, shall we?
"The long debates were fun, but I guess you came away from them insulted."
The fact that you like telling me I'm a bigot and that I force people to believe certain things of Sephiroth is fun to you? That actually says a lot about you, doesn't it? And of course I was insulted because my points were being ignored and misinterpreted, and I often had to bring up several points again several times before you would address them. You also made some assumptions about me which I believe were not well placed, and as I said above, this only served to drag the debate along, and when I have to repeat a point because you're going to ignore it or misinterpret it, there's no way I'm going to enjoy a debate like that. It becomes pointless.
"It dose read like to me as a spoilt teenager (forgive my rudeness but that is exactly how it reads) not getting they're own way. In all fairness it is difficult to have a worth while discussion about CC when I haven't played it yet. I would like to but I'll have to wait until after March (as that is when I can afford it) as I suspect most others will do as well. I try and focus on what other viewpoints have been raised and enjoy reading the outcome. When faced with statements that are basically accusing other memebers of not bringing worth while conversation then I feel that the person in question should take their leave."
"The reason that Crisis Core hasn't exactly sparked up tons of debate is because, you know, it's not out in English speaking countries and for the courtesy of people who don't speak Japanese on any level and don't want to spoil things we're keeping spoilers to a minimum. It's common courtesy, not a lack of interesting things to discuss in Crisis Core."
"That's one hell of a crackpot excuse. I've never played Before Crisis, I can't read the novellas, but there's this wonderful tool called the internet where you will find translations of varying pieces of the compilation available for your reading pleasure (a good chunk of them provided by the translators on this very board). You must be a poor Sephiroth (much less FFVII fan) if you can't take the time out to click a couple links which I know several members on this board would be happy to provide and read these translations. If you can spend time reading fanfics, you can spend a bit of time reading the translations. Heck, you could find some translations for Crisis Core right now. And when the game comes out, look all over Youtube and Gamefaqs for an even more indepth experience. There's no excuse for not knowing these things. "I've never read/played it" doesn't cut it anymore. If you want to know, you'll find a way."
Do you not see the contradiction here? One minute you're saying that nobody has to make an analysis of Crisis Core simply because it's not out until March. Now you're telling me everybody can make an analysis of Crisis Core; just read the translation pages. So why is it I'm the only one who's expected to read the translation pages, when everyone else gets to sit back and wait until it comes out? when I say I don't have the game, I mean it; I, like everyone else, don't have the game because we're all waiting for it to come out, and either you expect all of us to read the translation pages, and we're not fans until we do, or maybe you should stop telling people who's a fan and who isn't a fan--remember, that's also just your opinion too. Now just because I don't think much of Crisis Core doesn't mean I won't eventually play the game; people could simply play a game for the sake of seeing how bad it is. But so that you don't make anymore ridiculous assumptions about what I think of Crisis Core, I don't really have an opinion as to whether or not it's going to be a good or a bad game. But gee, I hate it when I have to spell out everything to debaters like you who assume everything I don't say, whether it is right or wrong. Okay, so maybe we're all not expected to play Crisis Core yet and analyze it. But if that's the case, then you're basically saying, as quoted above, that everyone is a poor Sephiroth fan because they won't take the time out to click a couple of links to see the translation pages.
Now even if we were to assume that I could have read the translation pages and made some sort of analysis, we've already conceded that everyone else doesn't want to read them, either because they're not Sephiroth fans like you say they are or because they want to wait until the game comes out. So who is really going to make any real responses to any analysis I get from reading the translation pages? No one else has read them except maybe you and your translator buddies, but it seems that most of them aren't really Sephiroth fans and came for only one occasion--so the only other person I get to talk to about the analysis would be you.
Now that's not really a lot of fun. This is why I mentioned in my last post, the 400-500th pages in Sephyism where we did have good discussion. So maybe there was that one topic about the Masamune shortly after I stopped arguing, but did that compare to the discussion about the Masamune back in the 400th-500th pages in Sephyism? Of course not. Not only did that discussion of the Masamune last for almost a page, but it spawned another discussion. Did the recent discussion of the Masamune spawn any more discussions, and was it nearly as lasting? See for yourself. I believe it wasn't.
Of course, you could take this to mean that people would be reading translation pages after the game has been released; it's just that they'd rather not read the translation pages before the game came out because it wouldn't be much fun. If that were true though, how many people actually bother to read the translation pages after they've played the game? Doesn't seem to be too many people I know of. Afterall, what's the point of reading a translation page when you've already read a translation of the game as it's meant to be translated? Isn't that what you've been after the entire time, "what's meant to be"? You'd have to be supremely devoted enough to read something like that, and that's also assuming you even know which translation is better than the other, and most American gamers, not having much knowledge of the Japanese language, would have to take a guess, and it's not fair to have to hold most American fans to something like this, which they have no knowledge of and become fans of a game just by playing it, and not because they care to read some translation pages for a translation that's already been given to them, and which might just be redundant to them.
And don't make excuses about not posting analyses in Sephyism about Crisis Core. Afterall, what have you been doing the entire time? Talking about Crisis Core and what you apparently know and think of it? Not only that, but you've been using SPOILER TAGS. Wouldn't it just be so simple to make your analyses and not worry about spoiling it for others if you used some spoiler tags? And don't also tell me that no one else is going to respond to them because if you had thought of that, you wouldn't have bothered to make the ridiculous statement of suggesting I should read the translation pages.
"Discussion about Sephiroth's strength against other members of 1st class SOLDIER for example. I think a topic that could become worth while. One I hope to contribute once I have experienced CC."
Don't make a stupid excuse like that. Why don't you do what Rucksack says above and read a translation page? If not, you're only conceding to his definition that you're not a Sephiroth fan, since you "agree" with him.
"And your complete dismissal of Crisis Core's potential impact (and there WILL be a boom in discussion once it comes out) is astoundingly shallow and ignorant."
"Speculating on what others will discuse or not is something that shouldn't be used as an agruement against other memembers. I feel that both Rucksack and Schala Kitty have added some note worthy comments to the club. Some which if I had more time I would contribute to."
I am making a prediction of its impact on Sephyism. So far, I have yet to see anything from it because you're making lame excuses for not posting about it, and everyone else is not really a "Sephiroth fan", thanks to the convenient definition you provided. I might also suggest that it's probably not only the impact of Crisis Core, but also because the old members who used to contribute lots to Sephyism and made the 100 or so pages of Sephyism worth reading no longer care for it.
Do not assume that I have particular grudges against other members. I only wish to point out that they could be more constructive in Sephyism by posting some topics for discussion; it doesn't even have to be about Crisis Core, which is why I mentioned the 100 or so pages in Sephyism. It just has to be something Sephiroth related, but all I'm seeing, according to observation, is that Rucksack usually only posts if I make a comment he doesn't like, and Schala Kitty also doesn't post either except if I make a comment she doesn't like either. It is true that it is my OPINION that Crisis Core won't spawn much more discussion from what I've seen; you can take that comment or leave it; I'm not forcing you to believe it. In fact, feel free to prove me wrong, but as I've said, it would only be because I suggested it, and not because, you, or anyone else as a devoted Sephiroth fan felt there should be some more discussion topics. Now if you don't like my opinions or my definition of a Sephiroth fan, that's fine too; I never said you had to accept it either, and I never even asked you to respond to these either. The fact that you're responding to my argument rather than going off and making ANY discussion topic about Sephiroth only proves my point. And don't tell me you don't have time to contribute to discussion; afterall, you had enough time to write a response to me, and rather half-assed, considering you made the same assumptions and ridiculous notions I never even stated. So tell me; what kind of a Sephiroth fan are you?
"No one ever once insulted the fanfic, or your comic, so if you feel that us arguing against the age-old fanon "lab-rat Sephiroth" concept is an insult to either you or Daryl, you need to take a chill pill. As Sephiroth fans of varying degrees who accept the canon personality, we (or, at leas I) find the lab-rat Sephiroth an insult to his character. That's not saying the fanfic is bad, or your comic isn't a labor of love to the character, but I think you coming off as insulted just because several people gathered canon facts and arguments against you who so vehemently refused to believe there wasn't a possibility he was abused shows you seem to hold that version of his characterization dear to your heart."
"I'm sorry that you feel, Angelus, that the club as lost some of its strength but that is you own personal view point not one that should be forced onto others. I feel that you seem to be angry that no one follows your viewpoint on Sephiroth's 'labrat' past. I think that is a mistake on your part. This can cause you problems as you have gone against those who don't hold the same view. I'm one of those people. Sephiroth didn't see himself as a victim when he was growing up and thus I don't think the Labrat theory holds. You don't see me attacking anyone who supports that theory. I think its an interesting theory and I enjoy reading peoples thought process behind it. At the moment I'm not sure if i want to read anything that you have posted as you seem hellbent on hating other viewpoints."
Here's where all the fallacious assumptions get worse. Now you admit that the lab-rat interpretation of Sephiroth is an insult to what you think of Sephiroth (or I guess "what's meant to be" because you so vehemently believe it's more important than anything else in the story, even if "what's meant to be" might be done poorly). So if that's true, why the hell would you care about seeing a FANFIC of Sephiroth that says what you don't like? Now mind you, nobody is saying that the comic I'm drawing or the writing the fanfic writer does is cannon. In fact, we both admit it isn't cannon. Not only that, but the fanfic was written BEFORE Crisis Core even existed. And we know that back then, there was no evidence of Sephiroth's childhood, and whether or not he was abused could not be known.
And let's get this straight too as well. Because this is one of the most commonly misinterpreted things about my views of Sephiroth. I have said before that I think an ambiguous Sephiroth is more appealing to me than a Sephiroth that we know everything about, and you may feel free to disagree with me if you wish. I don't care if you don't like the ambiguous Sephiroth as much, but that's your opinion, and my opinion is my opinion. With the ambiguous Sephiroth, it would be perfectly fine if his entire childhood wasn't revealed, and we could discuss what could have happened to him. Because there was no evidence, there would be no one correct path that could clearly explain Sephiroth's childhood. But because of Crisis Core, there apparently are certain things we can't say about him anymore--but it still gives no evidence of Sephiroth's childhood whatsoever. Although one of the best reasons I reject the "human" Sephiroth (and to this day, nobody can adequately explain to me why he's been given this label, even though Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth in the original game is no different from the Sephiroth in Crisis Core) is because of the poor expression. Now I don't mean that he was portrayed badly in Crisis Core, but that there seems to have been some sort of reaction to the fans not interpreting Sephiroth the way the developers wanted, and a bit of having kept Sephiroth ambiguous for so long that any doubt of Sephiroth being revealed would be quelled. (Now some of you say that it's only natural to be waiting eight years or more for this, but the fact is, fans can't wait that long. And it's not natural to be waiting that long; there are examples of games that have sequels coming out in less than eight years; even some by Squaresoft itself. Take the Myst series, for example. The first game came out in 1995, and Riven, its sequel came out in 1998; that took only three years. The SaGa Frontier series, which was made by Squaresoft didn't take that long either; SaGa Frontier came out in 1998, and SaGa Frontier II came out in 2000. And Unlimited SaGa came out three years later. So waiting eight years is a ridiculous amount of time. It's the same amount of time it takes for TWO sequels to appear, and maybe even mention of a third if it's that popular.) Now obviously, this problem can be explained by Square's failure to pay attention to the audience. Not only that, but if they expected fans to react a certain way to Sephiroth's character, and they don't act the way they want to, then they have failed to express what they intended to. Either they should have just allowed for some ambiguity, because expecting everyone to see a character the same way is ridiculous; everyone sees things differently, or just admitted they couldn't express it very well, and to quit twisting or changing things that have already been established. What has already been established for eight years is that Sephiroth isn't going to be revealed. I mentioned that most games that include Sephiroth after the original game he was from didn't do that; either they were non cannon, occurred after the original game, or simply didn't reveal much more about Sephiroth, except for some retconning. Now I know people have been mentioning Before Crisis, but it's in the same boat as Crisis Core; either none of us are devoted fans, and we're waiting for it to reach North America and we haven't read any translation pages, or doing any kind of analysis on it is impossible because there are only a select few people to do this with, in which such an analysis or discussion would not be fun, and would not necessarily spawn more discussions. So the bottom line? Sephiroth has been more or less played to seem ambiguous to most fans, because of his appearances in the game and because it's taken so long for Crisis Core to come out. Now my premises for saying this are not that I WANT Sephiroth to be ambiguous, rather that most of the evidence doesn't seem to point to Sephiroth being revealed. So in the end, I am not complaining about Sephiroth not being portrayed as the evidence goes, but that revealing him for so long is a bad idea, and the creators have most likely failed to express what they want to express. My whole concept of Sephiroth that I have a problem with is not that I believe he was treated like a lab-rat as a child, or that he was meant to be ambiguous, but that "what's meant to be" is done badly. You people are so hooked onto "what's meant to be" that you don't even see how the fan's views could be important. Sure, there are lots of different ones, and different people might hold certain views dear to them (and the one you believe me to have is incorrect, but there are probably people that do), but the fact that they do is evidence that this is what Sephiroth used to be in the original game; he was portrayed so ambiguously that it would be impossible to expect everyone to have the same interpretation of him. You may believe in "cannon", and you may believe in "what's meant to be", but when we can't tell "what's meant to be" because of the ambiguity and the creators changing what they had intended to do, you cannot expect everyone to know "what's meant to be" anymore than we're allowed to read the minds of the creators--that is the art of good writing--being able to express what you mean either unambiguously, or on purpose for the sake of fueling discussion or analysis. Of course, most of this ambiguity stems from the original game, and not Crisis Core; but the fact that Crisis Core is going to change some of this and it happened eight years after the original game, the same time it takes for nearly THREE sequels to be created confuses the audience--you may deny this, but only because you've become so hellbent on "what's meant to be" that when it finally appears, you forget that the original game didn't portray "what's meant to be" very well--perhaps you've been believing "what's meant to be" from the original game all along, either because you've been reading things like Ultimania (and as I have said, you shouldn't need a guide to tell you what a story in a game is telling you. And if there's something in that guide that you can't figure out from the game, the game does lack something in good expression) or because you believe the original Japanese text is unambiguous, but if it's the latter case we're talking about, we're back to the same problem again--you're accusing all of us of not being devoted fans because most of us haven't read any translation pages.
I also just wanted to add this note about the Ultimania, which, like most American gamers, I am unable to read because I don't understand enough Japanese. As I have said before, I don't think it's necessary to read the Ultimania to completely benefit the full storyline in the game because normal players should be able to figure out for themselves what the story in the game is and what it might be saying. You shouldn't need another outside source to tell you how you should interpret the game because that's considered bad expression. Think about it: if there's something in Ultimania that's significant to the storyline in the game that's not in the game itself, wouldn't you say that the game lacks the ability to tell the tale on its own, and therefore, might be considered bad expression? Of course, it's entirely possible that the game was meant to be ambiguous, so there would be certain things left unsaid, but if this guide were to exist, that couldn't possibly be the case because now it's telling us what the creators meant to express, and it was published for the sake of clearing up "misconceptions" that people have of the game. But these "misconceptions" could not have happened unless the creators were to concede that it was their fault for making the story so ambiguous. I have seen people using the Ultimania to prove their point, but it would only tell us "what's meant to be"; it tells me nothing about how the characters in the game are portrayed or anything about the quality of the expression in the game, except to continuously remind me that the creators failed to express what they meant poorly, and in most arguments about how characters are portrayed, it's rendered completely useless. I suggest this not as a mockery to my debating opponents, but as advice for any people in the future wishing to debate about how good or bad the expression in the game was. I could also suggest that if you need to use the Ultimania to prove a point, then you clearly haven't done your job as a gamer and interpreted the game on your own--it tells me that you're letting someone else tell you how to interpret a game, even if it's "what's meant to be", and you're either too lazy or not smart enough to figure out what's being said, or it definitely explains why you don't understand the concept of ambiguity and why alternate interpretations exist; you're so bent on "what's meant to be" that you don't see that people see different things in the game alone without consulting Ultimania--that definitely shows there is ambiguity and possibly a lack of good expression. You see, in the grander scheme of things, it doesn't matter "what's meant to be"--how it's portrayed is definitely more important. If it's not portrayed well, then we can't know "what's meant to be". And if you need a guide to tell you "what's meant to be" there can't really be much to discuss except to nod heads and agree with what it is (because apparently, Ultimania is supposed to be unambiguous). But because gamers all have different perspectives and different interpretations, and they all interpret something portrayed ambiguously differently, they all cannot be expected to know "what's meant to be"--there are simply just too many possibilities for that to be true. And I find it ridiculous that we must be expected to speak only of "what's meant to be" just because a guide explains what the writers meant to portray, but the game on its own could not. But we analyze and interpret and discuss a character, not because of what some auxiliary guide says to remind us the game's expression sucks, but because of what the game has shown us. Yes, maybe we can't ignore the fact that the game might have been expressed poorly because we didn't know what the writers intended without a guide, but we can at least talk about the various interpretations that the ambiguity has spawned, as if "what's meant to be" weren't so important because if you need an optional guide for it, it shouldn't be important. I have never heard of a game where you needed to buy a guide with it in order for its storyline to work. You might buy a walkthrough for a game, but it is, by no means, considered necessary, and the idea of buying a story guide in order to play a game is clearly unpopular. But what's even more sad is that some translators have told me that the Japanese translation of the game was less ambiguous than the English one, and so they should have fewer problems understanding "what's meant to be" in the game, but the irony is that Ultimania was written completely in Japanese and was not officially translated at all. You would think because of all the ambiguities in the English game (at least) that the Ultimania translated into English would actually benefit these gamers more (even if it might serve to once again remind people that their expression sucks), but that just doesn't happen. The only reason this is happening, apparently, is because of fanservice. I suggest that's the same reason Crisis Core exists; more fanservice--that definitely explains why everything I explained about the expression just doesn't make any sense at all.
I am NOT forcing my opinion onto others. You can choose not to agree with me just as you are displaying now. What you should be seeing is that I might feel strongly about this, but I am, by no means, asserting that every single person who reads my posts MUST agree with me. What people don't seem to understand is that when you have a debate, you are doing so so that other people might understand what you see in your own perspective, regardless of what topic it is, and so that you might be able to see what the other person is seeing. I am beginning to see more of what's "meant to be", but that again doesn't change how it's portrayed or how it's taken so long for it to appear, and what I've explained above. You guys, on the other hand, are ignoring what I'm bringing to the table because you brush it off as not "what's meant to be", and have failed to get my point all along, thinking or assuming you know what I'm saying, when you do not. All that's happened is some putting of words in my mouth, people possibly getting offended because they don't get what I'm saying, and assuming things that aren't even true, and a debate that's getting dragged along. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with disagreeing in your own views of things because everyone has their own views. There are certain things I had that made me disagree with other people's viewpoints, but that doesn't mean you can't continue to believe in them. If that's what you want, then go ahead, I'm not going to stop you. In fact, I sometimes feel like I'm the one being attacked. I made my own perspective of my view of masculinity, and I get questioned on it, instead of accepting that my view of masculinity is different from everyone else's. Or I come up with a new thought or idea, and it gets shot down because someone ELSE is hellbent on hating my viewpoint--if that weren't true, why do you have to resort to fallacious assumptions, twisting of words and ignoring of certain other points I bring up? I do not do these things in order to attack other people's viewpoints, but it's IMPOSSIBLE to accept someone else's viewpoint if you don't understand it and need to question it. You may see it as an "attack", but a debate like that is rarely ever not "hostile" as you seem to see it. So either you need to learn what a debate is, or simply accept that we can have a debate over differing viewpoints because we don't understand each other. Thanks a lot for pretending you do.
In case you didn't want to read the huge long explanation, here's a summary--I don't hold the lab-rat explanation of Sephiroth's childhood dear to my heart; I hold NOTHING dear to my heart, but I don't believe it absolutely happened; it was just one of the possible explanations of Sephiroth's childhood before Crisis Core and because there was no evidence of Sephiroth's childhood--speculations of Sephiroth's childhood are still possible, and if you are to suggest that there was only one way, and one way only of how Sephiroth's childhood happened, then thanks for killing another possible discussion. Furthermore, I am NOT forcing my opinion on other people; they are free to believe what they want, and if you don't like the fact that debating other people's opinions may involve "attacking" other people's viewpoints, questioning them or arguing about them in an attempt to understand them, then you need to learn what a debate is, and quit pretending that knowing my viewpoint is going to make it go away. Of course it doesn't, but these fallacious assumptions, putting the words in my mouth and ignoring of some of the stuff I say has got to stop.
"The 'Spoilt Teenager' comment is not to be seen as insult more as a point to illistrait how I'm reading the statement. Its up to you on how you see it."
You know what I see? Bullshit. You're making a spoiled teenager comment on fallacious assumptions, ignorance of certain comments, and mere twisting of words. All I said was that I was going to go because my friends weren't here and what made Sephyism so great isn't there anymore, and perhaps some of my views of things, but for goodness sake, if you really think I am nothing more than a "spoiled teenager" then quit wasting time on ME and spend more time on DISCUSSING and ANALYZING SEPHIROTH. Now wouldn't that make more sense to be doing something like that in a Sephiroth fan club? What a pity it is, having to be told this by a "spoiled teenager".
"And you know what? That's fine. But if the rest of Sephiroth's fans are willing to accept him as he is, and you now can't stand him or us because of your stubbornness, then perhaps it's best you do leave. This is Sephyism, and it should be a fanclub for Sephiroth, not Sephiroth as you see him."
"I don't think that this is what the club is about. I agree with Rucksack, this is a club for fans of Sephiroth not a club for one persons viewpoint."
If others are free to bring up their viewpoints, would you let them? And since you agree with Rucksack, does that mean you agree that no one is a devoted Sephiroth fan except Rucksack, because you most likely haven't read any translation pages?
And what could be said of the "fans" that are now still part of Sephyism, and believe in "what's meant to be"? What "interesting" discussions are you now having? And what "fans" are you talking about? The ones that are waiting for Crisis Core to come out, or the ones you've conveniently defined as the people who don't read translation pages? You don't even have to be talking about Crisis Core in Sephyism; you could still talk about Sephiroth as he appeared in the other games. But I barely see even any of that. And don't tell me you don't have anything to talk about because we already exhausted all the topics. Someone revived the topic of the Masamune that we talked about several hundred pages ago, and with different people. At the very least, that's still better than no discussion. I'd rather not be a part of an empty club that doesn't have the same appeal it had some time ago and that also had some members that were able to keep discussion of Sephiroth going. In my own definition, I'd say that's what a real Sephiroth fan is. Someone who is willing to talk or discuss about Sephiroth in an attempt to know more about him, regardless of whether it's about "what's meant to be" or what he could be, some fan works, or whatever. So, how many "Sephiroth fans" who read translation pages are a part of Sephyism? I only know of one.
So congratulations. You're the only devoted fan in Sephyism. I hope you feel proud of yourself that you have no one else to talk to really except yourself.
"The long debates were fun, but I guess you came away from them insulted."
The fact that you like telling me I'm a bigot and that I force people to believe certain things of Sephiroth is fun to you? That actually says a lot about you, doesn't it? And of course I was insulted because my points were being ignored and misinterpreted, and I often had to bring up several points again several times before you would address them. You also made some assumptions about me which I believe were not well placed, and as I said above, this only served to drag the debate along, and when I have to repeat a point because you're going to ignore it or misinterpret it, there's no way I'm going to enjoy a debate like that. It becomes pointless.
"It dose read like to me as a spoilt teenager (forgive my rudeness but that is exactly how it reads) not getting they're own way. In all fairness it is difficult to have a worth while discussion about CC when I haven't played it yet. I would like to but I'll have to wait until after March (as that is when I can afford it) as I suspect most others will do as well. I try and focus on what other viewpoints have been raised and enjoy reading the outcome. When faced with statements that are basically accusing other memebers of not bringing worth while conversation then I feel that the person in question should take their leave."
"The reason that Crisis Core hasn't exactly sparked up tons of debate is because, you know, it's not out in English speaking countries and for the courtesy of people who don't speak Japanese on any level and don't want to spoil things we're keeping spoilers to a minimum. It's common courtesy, not a lack of interesting things to discuss in Crisis Core."
"That's one hell of a crackpot excuse. I've never played Before Crisis, I can't read the novellas, but there's this wonderful tool called the internet where you will find translations of varying pieces of the compilation available for your reading pleasure (a good chunk of them provided by the translators on this very board). You must be a poor Sephiroth (much less FFVII fan) if you can't take the time out to click a couple links which I know several members on this board would be happy to provide and read these translations. If you can spend time reading fanfics, you can spend a bit of time reading the translations. Heck, you could find some translations for Crisis Core right now. And when the game comes out, look all over Youtube and Gamefaqs for an even more indepth experience. There's no excuse for not knowing these things. "I've never read/played it" doesn't cut it anymore. If you want to know, you'll find a way."
Do you not see the contradiction here? One minute you're saying that nobody has to make an analysis of Crisis Core simply because it's not out until March. Now you're telling me everybody can make an analysis of Crisis Core; just read the translation pages. So why is it I'm the only one who's expected to read the translation pages, when everyone else gets to sit back and wait until it comes out? when I say I don't have the game, I mean it; I, like everyone else, don't have the game because we're all waiting for it to come out, and either you expect all of us to read the translation pages, and we're not fans until we do, or maybe you should stop telling people who's a fan and who isn't a fan--remember, that's also just your opinion too. Now just because I don't think much of Crisis Core doesn't mean I won't eventually play the game; people could simply play a game for the sake of seeing how bad it is. But so that you don't make anymore ridiculous assumptions about what I think of Crisis Core, I don't really have an opinion as to whether or not it's going to be a good or a bad game. But gee, I hate it when I have to spell out everything to debaters like you who assume everything I don't say, whether it is right or wrong. Okay, so maybe we're all not expected to play Crisis Core yet and analyze it. But if that's the case, then you're basically saying, as quoted above, that everyone is a poor Sephiroth fan because they won't take the time out to click a couple of links to see the translation pages.
Now even if we were to assume that I could have read the translation pages and made some sort of analysis, we've already conceded that everyone else doesn't want to read them, either because they're not Sephiroth fans like you say they are or because they want to wait until the game comes out. So who is really going to make any real responses to any analysis I get from reading the translation pages? No one else has read them except maybe you and your translator buddies, but it seems that most of them aren't really Sephiroth fans and came for only one occasion--so the only other person I get to talk to about the analysis would be you.
Now that's not really a lot of fun. This is why I mentioned in my last post, the 400-500th pages in Sephyism where we did have good discussion. So maybe there was that one topic about the Masamune shortly after I stopped arguing, but did that compare to the discussion about the Masamune back in the 400th-500th pages in Sephyism? Of course not. Not only did that discussion of the Masamune last for almost a page, but it spawned another discussion. Did the recent discussion of the Masamune spawn any more discussions, and was it nearly as lasting? See for yourself. I believe it wasn't.
Of course, you could take this to mean that people would be reading translation pages after the game has been released; it's just that they'd rather not read the translation pages before the game came out because it wouldn't be much fun. If that were true though, how many people actually bother to read the translation pages after they've played the game? Doesn't seem to be too many people I know of. Afterall, what's the point of reading a translation page when you've already read a translation of the game as it's meant to be translated? Isn't that what you've been after the entire time, "what's meant to be"? You'd have to be supremely devoted enough to read something like that, and that's also assuming you even know which translation is better than the other, and most American gamers, not having much knowledge of the Japanese language, would have to take a guess, and it's not fair to have to hold most American fans to something like this, which they have no knowledge of and become fans of a game just by playing it, and not because they care to read some translation pages for a translation that's already been given to them, and which might just be redundant to them.
And don't make excuses about not posting analyses in Sephyism about Crisis Core. Afterall, what have you been doing the entire time? Talking about Crisis Core and what you apparently know and think of it? Not only that, but you've been using SPOILER TAGS. Wouldn't it just be so simple to make your analyses and not worry about spoiling it for others if you used some spoiler tags? And don't also tell me that no one else is going to respond to them because if you had thought of that, you wouldn't have bothered to make the ridiculous statement of suggesting I should read the translation pages.
"Discussion about Sephiroth's strength against other members of 1st class SOLDIER for example. I think a topic that could become worth while. One I hope to contribute once I have experienced CC."
Don't make a stupid excuse like that. Why don't you do what Rucksack says above and read a translation page? If not, you're only conceding to his definition that you're not a Sephiroth fan, since you "agree" with him.
"And your complete dismissal of Crisis Core's potential impact (and there WILL be a boom in discussion once it comes out) is astoundingly shallow and ignorant."
"Speculating on what others will discuse or not is something that shouldn't be used as an agruement against other memembers. I feel that both Rucksack and Schala Kitty have added some note worthy comments to the club. Some which if I had more time I would contribute to."
I am making a prediction of its impact on Sephyism. So far, I have yet to see anything from it because you're making lame excuses for not posting about it, and everyone else is not really a "Sephiroth fan", thanks to the convenient definition you provided. I might also suggest that it's probably not only the impact of Crisis Core, but also because the old members who used to contribute lots to Sephyism and made the 100 or so pages of Sephyism worth reading no longer care for it.
Do not assume that I have particular grudges against other members. I only wish to point out that they could be more constructive in Sephyism by posting some topics for discussion; it doesn't even have to be about Crisis Core, which is why I mentioned the 100 or so pages in Sephyism. It just has to be something Sephiroth related, but all I'm seeing, according to observation, is that Rucksack usually only posts if I make a comment he doesn't like, and Schala Kitty also doesn't post either except if I make a comment she doesn't like either. It is true that it is my OPINION that Crisis Core won't spawn much more discussion from what I've seen; you can take that comment or leave it; I'm not forcing you to believe it. In fact, feel free to prove me wrong, but as I've said, it would only be because I suggested it, and not because, you, or anyone else as a devoted Sephiroth fan felt there should be some more discussion topics. Now if you don't like my opinions or my definition of a Sephiroth fan, that's fine too; I never said you had to accept it either, and I never even asked you to respond to these either. The fact that you're responding to my argument rather than going off and making ANY discussion topic about Sephiroth only proves my point. And don't tell me you don't have time to contribute to discussion; afterall, you had enough time to write a response to me, and rather half-assed, considering you made the same assumptions and ridiculous notions I never even stated. So tell me; what kind of a Sephiroth fan are you?
"No one ever once insulted the fanfic, or your comic, so if you feel that us arguing against the age-old fanon "lab-rat Sephiroth" concept is an insult to either you or Daryl, you need to take a chill pill. As Sephiroth fans of varying degrees who accept the canon personality, we (or, at leas I) find the lab-rat Sephiroth an insult to his character. That's not saying the fanfic is bad, or your comic isn't a labor of love to the character, but I think you coming off as insulted just because several people gathered canon facts and arguments against you who so vehemently refused to believe there wasn't a possibility he was abused shows you seem to hold that version of his characterization dear to your heart."
"I'm sorry that you feel, Angelus, that the club as lost some of its strength but that is you own personal view point not one that should be forced onto others. I feel that you seem to be angry that no one follows your viewpoint on Sephiroth's 'labrat' past. I think that is a mistake on your part. This can cause you problems as you have gone against those who don't hold the same view. I'm one of those people. Sephiroth didn't see himself as a victim when he was growing up and thus I don't think the Labrat theory holds. You don't see me attacking anyone who supports that theory. I think its an interesting theory and I enjoy reading peoples thought process behind it. At the moment I'm not sure if i want to read anything that you have posted as you seem hellbent on hating other viewpoints."
Here's where all the fallacious assumptions get worse. Now you admit that the lab-rat interpretation of Sephiroth is an insult to what you think of Sephiroth (or I guess "what's meant to be" because you so vehemently believe it's more important than anything else in the story, even if "what's meant to be" might be done poorly). So if that's true, why the hell would you care about seeing a FANFIC of Sephiroth that says what you don't like? Now mind you, nobody is saying that the comic I'm drawing or the writing the fanfic writer does is cannon. In fact, we both admit it isn't cannon. Not only that, but the fanfic was written BEFORE Crisis Core even existed. And we know that back then, there was no evidence of Sephiroth's childhood, and whether or not he was abused could not be known.
And let's get this straight too as well. Because this is one of the most commonly misinterpreted things about my views of Sephiroth. I have said before that I think an ambiguous Sephiroth is more appealing to me than a Sephiroth that we know everything about, and you may feel free to disagree with me if you wish. I don't care if you don't like the ambiguous Sephiroth as much, but that's your opinion, and my opinion is my opinion. With the ambiguous Sephiroth, it would be perfectly fine if his entire childhood wasn't revealed, and we could discuss what could have happened to him. Because there was no evidence, there would be no one correct path that could clearly explain Sephiroth's childhood. But because of Crisis Core, there apparently are certain things we can't say about him anymore--but it still gives no evidence of Sephiroth's childhood whatsoever. Although one of the best reasons I reject the "human" Sephiroth (and to this day, nobody can adequately explain to me why he's been given this label, even though Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth in the original game is no different from the Sephiroth in Crisis Core) is because of the poor expression. Now I don't mean that he was portrayed badly in Crisis Core, but that there seems to have been some sort of reaction to the fans not interpreting Sephiroth the way the developers wanted, and a bit of having kept Sephiroth ambiguous for so long that any doubt of Sephiroth being revealed would be quelled. (Now some of you say that it's only natural to be waiting eight years or more for this, but the fact is, fans can't wait that long. And it's not natural to be waiting that long; there are examples of games that have sequels coming out in less than eight years; even some by Squaresoft itself. Take the Myst series, for example. The first game came out in 1995, and Riven, its sequel came out in 1998; that took only three years. The SaGa Frontier series, which was made by Squaresoft didn't take that long either; SaGa Frontier came out in 1998, and SaGa Frontier II came out in 2000. And Unlimited SaGa came out three years later. So waiting eight years is a ridiculous amount of time. It's the same amount of time it takes for TWO sequels to appear, and maybe even mention of a third if it's that popular.) Now obviously, this problem can be explained by Square's failure to pay attention to the audience. Not only that, but if they expected fans to react a certain way to Sephiroth's character, and they don't act the way they want to, then they have failed to express what they intended to. Either they should have just allowed for some ambiguity, because expecting everyone to see a character the same way is ridiculous; everyone sees things differently, or just admitted they couldn't express it very well, and to quit twisting or changing things that have already been established. What has already been established for eight years is that Sephiroth isn't going to be revealed. I mentioned that most games that include Sephiroth after the original game he was from didn't do that; either they were non cannon, occurred after the original game, or simply didn't reveal much more about Sephiroth, except for some retconning. Now I know people have been mentioning Before Crisis, but it's in the same boat as Crisis Core; either none of us are devoted fans, and we're waiting for it to reach North America and we haven't read any translation pages, or doing any kind of analysis on it is impossible because there are only a select few people to do this with, in which such an analysis or discussion would not be fun, and would not necessarily spawn more discussions. So the bottom line? Sephiroth has been more or less played to seem ambiguous to most fans, because of his appearances in the game and because it's taken so long for Crisis Core to come out. Now my premises for saying this are not that I WANT Sephiroth to be ambiguous, rather that most of the evidence doesn't seem to point to Sephiroth being revealed. So in the end, I am not complaining about Sephiroth not being portrayed as the evidence goes, but that revealing him for so long is a bad idea, and the creators have most likely failed to express what they want to express. My whole concept of Sephiroth that I have a problem with is not that I believe he was treated like a lab-rat as a child, or that he was meant to be ambiguous, but that "what's meant to be" is done badly. You people are so hooked onto "what's meant to be" that you don't even see how the fan's views could be important. Sure, there are lots of different ones, and different people might hold certain views dear to them (and the one you believe me to have is incorrect, but there are probably people that do), but the fact that they do is evidence that this is what Sephiroth used to be in the original game; he was portrayed so ambiguously that it would be impossible to expect everyone to have the same interpretation of him. You may believe in "cannon", and you may believe in "what's meant to be", but when we can't tell "what's meant to be" because of the ambiguity and the creators changing what they had intended to do, you cannot expect everyone to know "what's meant to be" anymore than we're allowed to read the minds of the creators--that is the art of good writing--being able to express what you mean either unambiguously, or on purpose for the sake of fueling discussion or analysis. Of course, most of this ambiguity stems from the original game, and not Crisis Core; but the fact that Crisis Core is going to change some of this and it happened eight years after the original game, the same time it takes for nearly THREE sequels to be created confuses the audience--you may deny this, but only because you've become so hellbent on "what's meant to be" that when it finally appears, you forget that the original game didn't portray "what's meant to be" very well--perhaps you've been believing "what's meant to be" from the original game all along, either because you've been reading things like Ultimania (and as I have said, you shouldn't need a guide to tell you what a story in a game is telling you. And if there's something in that guide that you can't figure out from the game, the game does lack something in good expression) or because you believe the original Japanese text is unambiguous, but if it's the latter case we're talking about, we're back to the same problem again--you're accusing all of us of not being devoted fans because most of us haven't read any translation pages.
I also just wanted to add this note about the Ultimania, which, like most American gamers, I am unable to read because I don't understand enough Japanese. As I have said before, I don't think it's necessary to read the Ultimania to completely benefit the full storyline in the game because normal players should be able to figure out for themselves what the story in the game is and what it might be saying. You shouldn't need another outside source to tell you how you should interpret the game because that's considered bad expression. Think about it: if there's something in Ultimania that's significant to the storyline in the game that's not in the game itself, wouldn't you say that the game lacks the ability to tell the tale on its own, and therefore, might be considered bad expression? Of course, it's entirely possible that the game was meant to be ambiguous, so there would be certain things left unsaid, but if this guide were to exist, that couldn't possibly be the case because now it's telling us what the creators meant to express, and it was published for the sake of clearing up "misconceptions" that people have of the game. But these "misconceptions" could not have happened unless the creators were to concede that it was their fault for making the story so ambiguous. I have seen people using the Ultimania to prove their point, but it would only tell us "what's meant to be"; it tells me nothing about how the characters in the game are portrayed or anything about the quality of the expression in the game, except to continuously remind me that the creators failed to express what they meant poorly, and in most arguments about how characters are portrayed, it's rendered completely useless. I suggest this not as a mockery to my debating opponents, but as advice for any people in the future wishing to debate about how good or bad the expression in the game was. I could also suggest that if you need to use the Ultimania to prove a point, then you clearly haven't done your job as a gamer and interpreted the game on your own--it tells me that you're letting someone else tell you how to interpret a game, even if it's "what's meant to be", and you're either too lazy or not smart enough to figure out what's being said, or it definitely explains why you don't understand the concept of ambiguity and why alternate interpretations exist; you're so bent on "what's meant to be" that you don't see that people see different things in the game alone without consulting Ultimania--that definitely shows there is ambiguity and possibly a lack of good expression. You see, in the grander scheme of things, it doesn't matter "what's meant to be"--how it's portrayed is definitely more important. If it's not portrayed well, then we can't know "what's meant to be". And if you need a guide to tell you "what's meant to be" there can't really be much to discuss except to nod heads and agree with what it is (because apparently, Ultimania is supposed to be unambiguous). But because gamers all have different perspectives and different interpretations, and they all interpret something portrayed ambiguously differently, they all cannot be expected to know "what's meant to be"--there are simply just too many possibilities for that to be true. And I find it ridiculous that we must be expected to speak only of "what's meant to be" just because a guide explains what the writers meant to portray, but the game on its own could not. But we analyze and interpret and discuss a character, not because of what some auxiliary guide says to remind us the game's expression sucks, but because of what the game has shown us. Yes, maybe we can't ignore the fact that the game might have been expressed poorly because we didn't know what the writers intended without a guide, but we can at least talk about the various interpretations that the ambiguity has spawned, as if "what's meant to be" weren't so important because if you need an optional guide for it, it shouldn't be important. I have never heard of a game where you needed to buy a guide with it in order for its storyline to work. You might buy a walkthrough for a game, but it is, by no means, considered necessary, and the idea of buying a story guide in order to play a game is clearly unpopular. But what's even more sad is that some translators have told me that the Japanese translation of the game was less ambiguous than the English one, and so they should have fewer problems understanding "what's meant to be" in the game, but the irony is that Ultimania was written completely in Japanese and was not officially translated at all. You would think because of all the ambiguities in the English game (at least) that the Ultimania translated into English would actually benefit these gamers more (even if it might serve to once again remind people that their expression sucks), but that just doesn't happen. The only reason this is happening, apparently, is because of fanservice. I suggest that's the same reason Crisis Core exists; more fanservice--that definitely explains why everything I explained about the expression just doesn't make any sense at all.
I am NOT forcing my opinion onto others. You can choose not to agree with me just as you are displaying now. What you should be seeing is that I might feel strongly about this, but I am, by no means, asserting that every single person who reads my posts MUST agree with me. What people don't seem to understand is that when you have a debate, you are doing so so that other people might understand what you see in your own perspective, regardless of what topic it is, and so that you might be able to see what the other person is seeing. I am beginning to see more of what's "meant to be", but that again doesn't change how it's portrayed or how it's taken so long for it to appear, and what I've explained above. You guys, on the other hand, are ignoring what I'm bringing to the table because you brush it off as not "what's meant to be", and have failed to get my point all along, thinking or assuming you know what I'm saying, when you do not. All that's happened is some putting of words in my mouth, people possibly getting offended because they don't get what I'm saying, and assuming things that aren't even true, and a debate that's getting dragged along. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with disagreeing in your own views of things because everyone has their own views. There are certain things I had that made me disagree with other people's viewpoints, but that doesn't mean you can't continue to believe in them. If that's what you want, then go ahead, I'm not going to stop you. In fact, I sometimes feel like I'm the one being attacked. I made my own perspective of my view of masculinity, and I get questioned on it, instead of accepting that my view of masculinity is different from everyone else's. Or I come up with a new thought or idea, and it gets shot down because someone ELSE is hellbent on hating my viewpoint--if that weren't true, why do you have to resort to fallacious assumptions, twisting of words and ignoring of certain other points I bring up? I do not do these things in order to attack other people's viewpoints, but it's IMPOSSIBLE to accept someone else's viewpoint if you don't understand it and need to question it. You may see it as an "attack", but a debate like that is rarely ever not "hostile" as you seem to see it. So either you need to learn what a debate is, or simply accept that we can have a debate over differing viewpoints because we don't understand each other. Thanks a lot for pretending you do.
In case you didn't want to read the huge long explanation, here's a summary--I don't hold the lab-rat explanation of Sephiroth's childhood dear to my heart; I hold NOTHING dear to my heart, but I don't believe it absolutely happened; it was just one of the possible explanations of Sephiroth's childhood before Crisis Core and because there was no evidence of Sephiroth's childhood--speculations of Sephiroth's childhood are still possible, and if you are to suggest that there was only one way, and one way only of how Sephiroth's childhood happened, then thanks for killing another possible discussion. Furthermore, I am NOT forcing my opinion on other people; they are free to believe what they want, and if you don't like the fact that debating other people's opinions may involve "attacking" other people's viewpoints, questioning them or arguing about them in an attempt to understand them, then you need to learn what a debate is, and quit pretending that knowing my viewpoint is going to make it go away. Of course it doesn't, but these fallacious assumptions, putting the words in my mouth and ignoring of some of the stuff I say has got to stop.
"The 'Spoilt Teenager' comment is not to be seen as insult more as a point to illistrait how I'm reading the statement. Its up to you on how you see it."
You know what I see? Bullshit. You're making a spoiled teenager comment on fallacious assumptions, ignorance of certain comments, and mere twisting of words. All I said was that I was going to go because my friends weren't here and what made Sephyism so great isn't there anymore, and perhaps some of my views of things, but for goodness sake, if you really think I am nothing more than a "spoiled teenager" then quit wasting time on ME and spend more time on DISCUSSING and ANALYZING SEPHIROTH. Now wouldn't that make more sense to be doing something like that in a Sephiroth fan club? What a pity it is, having to be told this by a "spoiled teenager".
"And you know what? That's fine. But if the rest of Sephiroth's fans are willing to accept him as he is, and you now can't stand him or us because of your stubbornness, then perhaps it's best you do leave. This is Sephyism, and it should be a fanclub for Sephiroth, not Sephiroth as you see him."
"I don't think that this is what the club is about. I agree with Rucksack, this is a club for fans of Sephiroth not a club for one persons viewpoint."
If others are free to bring up their viewpoints, would you let them? And since you agree with Rucksack, does that mean you agree that no one is a devoted Sephiroth fan except Rucksack, because you most likely haven't read any translation pages?
And what could be said of the "fans" that are now still part of Sephyism, and believe in "what's meant to be"? What "interesting" discussions are you now having? And what "fans" are you talking about? The ones that are waiting for Crisis Core to come out, or the ones you've conveniently defined as the people who don't read translation pages? You don't even have to be talking about Crisis Core in Sephyism; you could still talk about Sephiroth as he appeared in the other games. But I barely see even any of that. And don't tell me you don't have anything to talk about because we already exhausted all the topics. Someone revived the topic of the Masamune that we talked about several hundred pages ago, and with different people. At the very least, that's still better than no discussion. I'd rather not be a part of an empty club that doesn't have the same appeal it had some time ago and that also had some members that were able to keep discussion of Sephiroth going. In my own definition, I'd say that's what a real Sephiroth fan is. Someone who is willing to talk or discuss about Sephiroth in an attempt to know more about him, regardless of whether it's about "what's meant to be" or what he could be, some fan works, or whatever. So, how many "Sephiroth fans" who read translation pages are a part of Sephyism? I only know of one.
So congratulations. You're the only devoted fan in Sephyism. I hope you feel proud of yourself that you have no one else to talk to really except yourself.