And yes, what's with freezing the poor thing again? Did they even let him heal up first? Whatever happened to that proper trial stuff Kirk thought he should have instead of being killed from orbit? ( No, we're not supposed to care about that. The "bad guy" was beaten and the "main characters" are happy, that's all that matters. ) We don't know if he was told his people are still alive or not. I hope he was. It would be incredibly cruel otherwise. Then again I don't put it past people who are so convinced of their good-guyhood ( Starfleet ) to think he doesn't deserve to know because "he's the bad guy".
Freezing him again ( and keeping the others frozen ) is just a stupid cheap way of "staying good guys" because the Federation is so "enlightened" they don't have a death penalty. But what's being cryogenically frozen for eternity other than death? If you believe in an afterlife, it's even worse, because they won't be seeing any afterlife if their bodies are still alive. Nor will they experience anything at all. These "good and enlightened" people basically admit they aren't any better than their ancestors, because they can't fix the problem either. So they run away from their responsibilty, they say they want Khan judged and punished according to current Federation laws, but what they do is freeze the problem either forever or for later generations to deal with. ( I'm pretty sure cryogenically freezing their criminals isn't standard Federation punishment. ) And poor Khan is frozen in an even worse emotional state than he was the first time.
I wonder what would have happened if they'd all been thawed and given a planet to live on? I know this nice little place in the Ceti Alpha system... you just have to watch out for brain-eating parasites and exploding neighbouring planets..! ;-) Or what would have happened if, as soon as they found out there were frozen people in the torpedoes and that they were the reason Khan had done all that he had, they'd thawed them all and let them be reunited? ( Somehow I'm picturing a big group hug with Khan in the middle, crying happy tears, but that might just be my silly fangirlish sentimentality..! ;-)
About the surrender and subsequent out-of-control beating by Kirk, my thought is that Khan let him do that so that Kirk would realize that he himself perhaps wasn't as morally squeaky-clean as he thought he was, kind of take his self-confidence and self-satisfaction down a notch, make him realize that perhaps they are more similar than Kirk wants to believe. Whether to weaken the Starship Captain or to awaken his sympathy, I don't know. Either would probably work in Khan's favour. He seems to enjoy cutting straight to the heart of what makes people tick and use that against them.
Also, you've read the novelization? I guess the writer had to put in a lot of extra words to make a novel of decent length, but it kind of annoyed me that Khan ended up being something of a chatterbox. Part of what makes him so sinister and intimidating to me is that he only says what's absolutely necessary, like a swift stab to the heart instead of waving the sword around and slashing at everything. Swift and precise.
I guess you haven't seen Deep Space Nine? Its leading charcater, Captain Benjamin Sisko, once said: "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise." And what "paradise" has Khan ever been able to enjoy as a free man allowed to make his own decisions? No paradise is paradise if you aren't free. And I think he never was.
I think, in Into Darkness, it was Spock who assumed Khan would wipe out all inferior people, but I've also heard that the original Space Seed backstory for Khan is also canon in the new universe. I'm not entirely sure on the accuracy of that, so don't take it as gospel, but I think the consensus was that Spock, who hadn't grown up on Earth, wouldn't have known about Khan being the exception to the rule when it came to Augments.
I didn't, however, particularly want to go into the original canon stuff, because I've only seen Wrath of Khan once - although, I enjoyed it so much, I will be watching it again soon! - and I haven't seen Space Seed (what I know of it, I've been told by various others).
Having said that, I do remember thinking, after seeing Wrath of Khan, that, honestly, Khan had a right to be a bit cheesed off. Sure, Ceti Alpha V hadn't gone bad when they got there, but it was already, from what I recall, a treacherous place even before it went bad. As a consequence of it going bad, Khan lost a lot of people he loved dearly - including his wife. Sure, Kirk wouldn't have intended for the planet to go bad and he wouldn't have known it would go bad, but when you're grieving the loss of your loved ones, as Khan was, that doesn't register with you. And, really, if Kirk was in that position, wouldn't he be just as upset as Khan was?
Of course, again, if that happened to Kirk, because he's the hero, human nature would be to side with him and sympathise with him. Having said that, I have found it quite hard to sympathise with Kirk when it comes to Khan (both in Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness), because I just keep thinking "Well, hang on, Jim, if you were in that position, what would you do? How would you react?" And my answer is always "Exactly the same way, and you know it." I do think that Khan, in both universes, gets treated quite shoddily. Sure, he's no saint, but you can't help but feel a certain degree of compassion and respect for him. Also, he deeply loves his people. You can't deny that.
I haven't actually read the novelisation, per se. I just happened to be in a shop a few weeks ago, saw it there and flipped through it. But that one little moment where Khan admits (whether it's out loud to Kirk or mentally to himself, I can't remember; I'll have to double-check) that his actions may not have been logical did stick with me, so I filed it away in my head for future reference.
And yes, I *really* hope he was told his people were alive before he was frozen again. Because if he wasn't, that's just cruel. Whether he was or he wasn't, we'll probably never know, but if he was never told, well, regardless of Kirk's feelings towards him, that's, frankly, unforgivable.
As for Deep Space Nine, I've seen a handful of episodes, but not enough to really know too much about it. But you're so right. Khan has never been a free man. Hell, he didn't even have a choice about his own creation - he definitely didn't ask for it.
You know, I just realized why I want to see the two Khans as separate characters. ( Except for the fact that they / the actors look very different. ) It's the whole "abusive boyfriend" thing that goes on with Marla McGivers in Space Seed. It just disgusts me. ( And I don't understand how she can love a man who treats her like that, and betray her ship for him. ) Everything else, I can sort of sympathize with. But I still think he was way more justified in whatever he did after being woken up by Marcus before STID than by Kirk in Space Seed.
In Space Seed, he'd lost power once, and had to take over the ship to avoid being shipped to Starbase Whatever Number and end up in some sort of prison/punishment ( Kirk later says something about rehab colony I think? ). If he wants to be free and "build an empire" with his people without being "cured", it has to be now. And I got the impression that he didn't actually want to kill people, he didn't get any pleasure out of killing unless they were actual enemies.
And he could love ( and yes, I believe he loved her, but in a twisted way ) a woman who wasn't "bred for perfection". Even in TOS they were stronger and healthier and smarter than normal people, I think the actual "genetic engineering" wasn't decided/retconned until Wrath of Khan ( and certainly in more detail in the Enterprise Augment trilogy ( which I definitely recommend watching if you're interested in Augment biology and history! ). So there wasn't any "genetically inferior people should be put to death" philosophy but "we are superior and meant to rule".
Still not particularly "nice" but what purpose were they bred for, really? What were they raised to believe about themselves and their purpose? I think nuKhan said something about being created to "lead others to peace in a world at war". ( Yup. Found clip on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Sa6oUUByE ) And I just remembered there was this very odd episode of animated Trek where there was this scientist who had been involved in the Eugenics Wars and there was something about these giant clones who were supposed to "bring peace to the galaxy". So it's probably true they were bred to be better than normal humans and lead us to make the world a better place. It didn't work out that way, but there are indications of why in those Enterprise episodes. There's also a couple of episodes on the dangers of genetic engineering in Deep Space Nine.
But I actually thought Kirk treated Khan and crew incredibly leniently in Space Seed compared to what they deserved. Or rather compared to the threat they posed. They did briefly take over the ship and would have killed Kirk and crew if they had to. While Kirk had been pretty much welcoming and nice, giving him reading materials and hosting a dinner for him ( yes, to manipulate answers out of him, but can you blame him? This mysterious superman from the past is on your ship and refuses to tell you who he is! ). I can sort of see both of their sides. And then, after their taking over the ship failed ( thanks to the "abused girlfriend" taking a stand ) they were given a planet to rule! It seemed Kirk was admiring Khan and thought it was a waste of such an amazing man to send him to a Federation rehab colony to be brainwashed into a nice Federation citizen. I really thought that was a stupid decision, which it also turned out to be.
Yes, I can totally understand Khan going mad with grief over his wife ( who betrayed him and he forgave her ) and his people, and years of hardship on a harsh planet. But he was given a choice: "Rule in Hell or serve in Heaven". And rule in Hell he did... a bit more of a Hell than either he or Kirk thought when they were left there, but... it was a gamble and they both lost in the end. Yeah, it sucked. But Khan was screwed from the start. I don't really buy the "superiority breeds superior ambition" thing as a total necessity in all cases, but according to Enterprise there was something not right with them, and I definitely think that being raised as a tool for a specific purpose which then fails and the people you were supposed to save turn against you will screw anybody up beyond belief. But I agree, if Kirk had been stranded on a hostile planet for some 15 years, and lost the woman he loved and 20 of his crew, everybody would cheer him on for getting revenge on the man who stranded him there.
I guess with me sometimes first impressions can colour my view of a certain character for very long. For example Uhura's "I thought you were a hick who only had sex with farm animals" has pretty much given me a negative impression of her that lasted into the next movie ( and I really wanted to like her because I like classic Uhura! ). So that whole "abusive boyfriend" thing made me think Khan was... something I didn't feel comfortable with ( and that's saying a lot, because I normally have no problems with assassins and terrorists in fiction if they're portrayed in a way I can sympathize with ) so when I saw nuKhan and he didn't have a relationship like that with a woman, plus he seemed more sensitive, even crying for his people, I sort of mentally separated the two Khans in my head because I liked this one but couldn't reconcile that feeling with somebody who would treat a woman like that.
Somehow breaking a woman's thigh bone ( I think it was ) to incapacitate her is different from forcing a woman to kneel in front of him. If it had been a man I would have been ok with it, it wouldn't have given me that sexualized dominance / rape feeling. Or rather the treating women as weak and deserving abuse. And the "now you have to beg me to be allowed to stay"... and stuff. Dominating man, submissive woman. Just... no. But based on the historical men she admired, I think she might have actually liked it. Which creeps me out even more. Ok if you want that stuff in sexual roleplaying, but if it's pretty much their first interaction?
So based on these feelings, and contrary to canon, I choose to pretend that they aren't exactly the same person. A slightly different universe, even before Nero and Spock travelled back in time and changed things. Because I want to like nuKhan. ( And yes, I admit it's partly because I think Cumberbatch is gorgeous..! I never cared much for these super-muscular men... Sometimes fangirlish feelings override canon and objectivity... It is all make-believe and entertainment after all..! ;-)
Freezing him again ( and keeping the others frozen ) is just a stupid cheap way of "staying good guys" because the Federation is so "enlightened" they don't have a death penalty. But what's being cryogenically frozen for eternity other than death? If you believe in an afterlife, it's even worse, because they won't be seeing any afterlife if their bodies are still alive. Nor will they experience anything at all. These "good and enlightened" people basically admit they aren't any better than their ancestors, because they can't fix the problem either. So they run away from their responsibilty, they say they want Khan judged and punished according to current Federation laws, but what they do is freeze the problem either forever or for later generations to deal with. ( I'm pretty sure cryogenically freezing their criminals isn't standard Federation punishment. ) And poor Khan is frozen in an even worse emotional state than he was the first time.
I wonder what would have happened if they'd all been thawed and given a planet to live on? I know this nice little place in the Ceti Alpha system... you just have to watch out for brain-eating parasites and exploding neighbouring planets..! ;-) Or what would have happened if, as soon as they found out there were frozen people in the torpedoes and that they were the reason Khan had done all that he had, they'd thawed them all and let them be reunited? ( Somehow I'm picturing a big group hug with Khan in the middle, crying happy tears, but that might just be my silly fangirlish sentimentality..! ;-)
About the surrender and subsequent out-of-control beating by Kirk, my thought is that Khan let him do that so that Kirk would realize that he himself perhaps wasn't as morally squeaky-clean as he thought he was, kind of take his self-confidence and self-satisfaction down a notch, make him realize that perhaps they are more similar than Kirk wants to believe. Whether to weaken the Starship Captain or to awaken his sympathy, I don't know. Either would probably work in Khan's favour. He seems to enjoy cutting straight to the heart of what makes people tick and use that against them.
Also, you've read the novelization? I guess the writer had to put in a lot of extra words to make a novel of decent length, but it kind of annoyed me that Khan ended up being something of a chatterbox. Part of what makes him so sinister and intimidating to me is that he only says what's absolutely necessary, like a swift stab to the heart instead of waving the sword around and slashing at everything. Swift and precise.
I guess you haven't seen Deep Space Nine? Its leading charcater, Captain Benjamin Sisko, once said: "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise." And what "paradise" has Khan ever been able to enjoy as a free man allowed to make his own decisions? No paradise is paradise if you aren't free. And I think he never was.
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I didn't, however, particularly want to go into the original canon stuff, because I've only seen Wrath of Khan once - although, I enjoyed it so much, I will be watching it again soon! - and I haven't seen Space Seed (what I know of it, I've been told by various others).
Having said that, I do remember thinking, after seeing Wrath of Khan, that, honestly, Khan had a right to be a bit cheesed off. Sure, Ceti Alpha V hadn't gone bad when they got there, but it was already, from what I recall, a treacherous place even before it went bad. As a consequence of it going bad, Khan lost a lot of people he loved dearly - including his wife. Sure, Kirk wouldn't have intended for the planet to go bad and he wouldn't have known it would go bad, but when you're grieving the loss of your loved ones, as Khan was, that doesn't register with you. And, really, if Kirk was in that position, wouldn't he be just as upset as Khan was?
Of course, again, if that happened to Kirk, because he's the hero, human nature would be to side with him and sympathise with him. Having said that, I have found it quite hard to sympathise with Kirk when it comes to Khan (both in Wrath of Khan and Into Darkness), because I just keep thinking "Well, hang on, Jim, if you were in that position, what would you do? How would you react?" And my answer is always "Exactly the same way, and you know it." I do think that Khan, in both universes, gets treated quite shoddily. Sure, he's no saint, but you can't help but feel a certain degree of compassion and respect for him. Also, he deeply loves his people. You can't deny that.
I haven't actually read the novelisation, per se. I just happened to be in a shop a few weeks ago, saw it there and flipped through it. But that one little moment where Khan admits (whether it's out loud to Kirk or mentally to himself, I can't remember; I'll have to double-check) that his actions may not have been logical did stick with me, so I filed it away in my head for future reference.
And yes, I *really* hope he was told his people were alive before he was frozen again. Because if he wasn't, that's just cruel. Whether he was or he wasn't, we'll probably never know, but if he was never told, well, regardless of Kirk's feelings towards him, that's, frankly, unforgivable.
As for Deep Space Nine, I've seen a handful of episodes, but not enough to really know too much about it. But you're so right. Khan has never been a free man. Hell, he didn't even have a choice about his own creation - he definitely didn't ask for it.
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In Space Seed, he'd lost power once, and had to take over the ship to avoid being shipped to Starbase Whatever Number and end up in some sort of prison/punishment ( Kirk later says something about rehab colony I think? ). If he wants to be free and "build an empire" with his people without being "cured", it has to be now. And I got the impression that he didn't actually want to kill people, he didn't get any pleasure out of killing unless they were actual enemies.
And he could love ( and yes, I believe he loved her, but in a twisted way ) a woman who wasn't "bred for perfection". Even in TOS they were stronger and healthier and smarter than normal people, I think the actual "genetic engineering" wasn't decided/retconned until Wrath of Khan ( and certainly in more detail in the Enterprise Augment trilogy ( which I definitely recommend watching if you're interested in Augment biology and history! ). So there wasn't any "genetically inferior people should be put to death" philosophy but "we are superior and meant to rule".
Still not particularly "nice" but what purpose were they bred for, really? What were they raised to believe about themselves and their purpose? I think nuKhan said something about being created to "lead others to peace in a world at war". ( Yup. Found clip on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Sa6oUUByE ) And I just remembered there was this very odd episode of animated Trek where there was this scientist who had been involved in the Eugenics Wars and there was something about these giant clones who were supposed to "bring peace to the galaxy". So it's probably true they were bred to be better than normal humans and lead us to make the world a better place. It didn't work out that way, but there are indications of why in those Enterprise episodes. There's also a couple of episodes on the dangers of genetic engineering in Deep Space Nine.
But I actually thought Kirk treated Khan and crew incredibly leniently in Space Seed compared to what they deserved. Or rather compared to the threat they posed. They did briefly take over the ship and would have killed Kirk and crew if they had to. While Kirk had been pretty much welcoming and nice, giving him reading materials and hosting a dinner for him ( yes, to manipulate answers out of him, but can you blame him? This mysterious superman from the past is on your ship and refuses to tell you who he is! ). I can sort of see both of their sides. And then, after their taking over the ship failed ( thanks to the "abused girlfriend" taking a stand ) they were given a planet to rule! It seemed Kirk was admiring Khan and thought it was a waste of such an amazing man to send him to a Federation rehab colony to be brainwashed into a nice Federation citizen. I really thought that was a stupid decision, which it also turned out to be.
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I guess with me sometimes first impressions can colour my view of a certain character for very long. For example Uhura's "I thought you were a hick who only had sex with farm animals" has pretty much given me a negative impression of her that lasted into the next movie ( and I really wanted to like her because I like classic Uhura! ). So that whole "abusive boyfriend" thing made me think Khan was... something I didn't feel comfortable with ( and that's saying a lot, because I normally have no problems with assassins and terrorists in fiction if they're portrayed in a way I can sympathize with ) so when I saw nuKhan and he didn't have a relationship like that with a woman, plus he seemed more sensitive, even crying for his people, I sort of mentally separated the two Khans in my head because I liked this one but couldn't reconcile that feeling with somebody who would treat a woman like that.
Somehow breaking a woman's thigh bone ( I think it was ) to incapacitate her is different from forcing a woman to kneel in front of him. If it had been a man I would have been ok with it, it wouldn't have given me that sexualized dominance / rape feeling. Or rather the treating women as weak and deserving abuse. And the "now you have to beg me to be allowed to stay"... and stuff. Dominating man, submissive woman. Just... no. But based on the historical men she admired, I think she might have actually liked it. Which creeps me out even more. Ok if you want that stuff in sexual roleplaying, but if it's pretty much their first interaction?
So based on these feelings, and contrary to canon, I choose to pretend that they aren't exactly the same person. A slightly different universe, even before Nero and Spock travelled back in time and changed things. Because I want to like nuKhan. ( And yes, I admit it's partly because I think Cumberbatch is gorgeous..! I never cared much for these super-muscular men... Sometimes fangirlish feelings override canon and objectivity... It is all make-believe and entertainment after all..! ;-)
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