Interesting Links for 17-08-2016

[andrewducker]

Women Athletes Gave Up Gonads And More To Continue Olympic Competition (tags: women testosterone mutilation OhForFucksSake olympics sports ) Nice breakdown of costs and profits on a Kickstarter novel (tags: kickstarter business publishing CrowdFunding viaTheFerrett ) My favourite commentary on No Man's Sky (tags: games funny video ) How to lie

Comments

[steer]

Hmm... in general I'd say "if you identify as a woman you're a woman" is perfectly fine with me. But for athletics surely it's problematic?

Would the IAAF ask a man to give up his gonads and remove half of his penis to be allowed to competeWell, presumably if he wanted to become female and compete in the female event then they'd ask her to remove all his gonads and penis and ensure her testosterone was below a certain level to compete? (Wow it was confusing to work out what gender pronouns to use there.) Imagine a situation where someone identified as male to female transsexual and had no hormone treatment or operation. I'm happy enough to call that person a woman but it doesn't quite seem fair that she should compete in the female event at the Olympics. I don't know... does that seem prejudiced? It's hard to imagine someone actually being mischievous and identifying as a woman simply to win a medal. (I think that's the same fictitious bugbear as the imaginary republican nightmare of a man saying he's a woman to ogle naked

[lilchiva]

Right now, we just don't know how to do that very well

[steer]

We have this delusion that you can take an average person, train the shit out of them, and turn them into a Pro-level beast.

Definitely not under this delusion myself.

The idea that someone is going to intentionally misgender themselves in order to become competitive

Sure -- I was trying to say similar myself but didn't phrase it as succinctly.

So, where and how do you draw that line? We really just don't know.

Yes. I think it's going to be more important. Estimates are that something like 0.3% of the population of the US is transsexual. That's likely to be an underestimate given that it is really something people are extremely prejudiced about. Even if it is 0.3% (and many of those being very reluctant to appear in public "out") then as prejudice (hopefully) lessens we will see this become more important.

there's been a ton of controversy over her eligibility to fight other women in MMA.Sure -- I can understand. No idea what I think about that. But MMA is really quite a minority sport compared with most track and

[lilchiva]

Hey, I hope my comment didn't come off as "arguing with you". That' wasn't my intention. I was going more for 'opening up more discussion" than dissent. :)

MMA is actually a multi-billion dollar sport. There's far more money on the table than in track and field. But, if you take track and field, specifically marathons, this picture gets even sillier. The average man runs a marathon in around 4hrs. The top 200 female runners all average under 2:30. If the numbers are correct, then the top ten women are all in the top 300 of all runners. Basically, all your potential "gender cheaters" exist in a very small band of Kenyan and Ethiopian men. (See here too)

There must be very few Olympic events where the gold medal winning woman would have got a medal in the men's event. Yep. But, women do significantly better in all archery and marksmanship sports. They do better or are equal in all Equestrian sports. And, if gymnastics were co-ed, all the top athletes would be women. The same goes with singles figure skating. Supposedly, diving is the

[steer]

Hey, I hope my comment didn't come off as "arguing with you".

No worries I wasn't offended, just clarifying.

MMA is actually a multi-billion dollar sport. There's far more money on the table than in track and field.

Hmm... I'm not sure about this... I mean track and field as a whole is certainly into the multi-billions. But really we're thinking of the competitive field. What proportion of people do you think actually TRY MMA versus try sprinting. If your competitive field is only a few tens of thousands, rather than billions then you are not seeing the same part of the statistical distribution. Not to disparage them as athletes -- but when we think about the results you gave above about Kenyan and Ethopian men, that didn't become clear until marathon running as a sport became much much more popular.

The average man runs a marathon in around 4hrs... The top 200 female runners all average under 2:30. If the numbers are correct, then the top ten women are all in the top 300 of all runners. The average man doesn't get round the

[lilchiva]

I mean track and field as a whole is certainly into the multi-billions".I don't know for sure about the global picture. But, in the US and Canada, there's not nearly that kind of money or interest in the sport. My guess is one of the reasons running times for women have remained stable is due to the lack of sponsorship and incentive. I'd guess that's a big reason Ethiopians and Kenyans dominate the sport too. In the US, typically, if you can do track, there's a ton of pressure to get you to expand and do another more lucrative sport like baseball, soccer, or basketball. More or less, the people doing track into the college level are dedicated. Whereas other slightly slower people would go towards getting a scholarship in a different sport

[steer]

But, in the US and Canada, there's not nearly that kind of money or interest in the sport.

You might be surprised. I suspect the MMA figure you give is a "global turnover" figure -- so "multi-billion" is not in fact that big if that figure is achieved by putting together the turnover from every event associated with MMA -- but perhaps you mean something else. The turnover for the London marathon alone is around about 20 million dollars. The New York marathon is larger and that's just one event. Getting to the "billions" figure doesn't seem so difficult but maybe I am extrapolating too much and it falls off really quickly. (But smaller and not famous races I have been I estimate a turnover of a million dollars just on entry fees.)

it really doesn't matter what gender the average Jack competes under. The times are personal achievements and nothing more. At least, that's how I see it. Completely agree. In most distance races the majority of the field don't care about their "place". (I get sort of interested in how I am

[lilchiva]

You might be surprised

Probably not. I just looked this up, the average track athlete, without sponsors, make between $5-6k a year. That is lower than the lowest paid WNBA player. (Around 38k). Here's another article:

"But separate surveys taken by the Track & Field Athletes Association, a labor union, and the USATF Foundation came to the same conclusions: More than 50 percent of those ranked in the world's top 10 earn less than $15,000 from their sport, and there are wide variations between events." - indy star.

Meanwhile the UFC, alone, just sold for 4 billion. In the UFC, the lowest paid fighters, without other sponsors, fighting twice a year, make at least 5k from Reebok. The under card amounts vary. But, you're generally looking at 12k per fight on top of that. Here's one that's suggesting 50K average

Despite the phenomena of Usain Bolt, track is just not that popular. He represents the best you can do. But, most of his money is based on sneaker deals.

[steer]

Ah but we were talking about turnover for the discipline.

[lilchiva]

No we weren't. For whatever inexplicable reason, you are shifting the goal posts of this conversation. And, since this is the third time you've done so, I no longer think that it's a miscommunication. This has turned an otherwise friendly conversation into a miserable slog. Don't know why you're doing that. But, you can finish this exchange on your own. Take care. :)

[steer]

Apologies -- I genuinely did believe that was what your assertion was about.

[lilchiva]

1) I stated that MMA was a multi-billion dollar sport and that there was more money in it than track.

2) You stated that A) "I suspect the MMA figure you give is a "global turnover" figure -- so "multi-billion" is not in fact that big if that figure is achieved by putting together the turnover from every event associated with MMA -" and B) regarding track "etting to the "billions" figure doesn't seem so difficult but maybe I am extrapolating too much and it falls off really quickly"

3) So, I pointed out that 1 league out of a global pool of 12 or so MMA leagues just sold for 4 Billion dollars. UFC brings in about 1.2 billion a year in revenue. ONE league (that's the name) from Asia is valued at around a billion dollars as well. That is league is less than 10 years old.

Additionally, I pointed out that runners don't make very much money. I pointed out how little average and top tier runners make, in comparison to the LOWEST paid people in women's basketball and the UFC league.

4) Your response to that is "Ah but we were talking

[steer]

Look, I'm sorry I've offended you. Clearly you feel passionate about this. I don't doubt the accuracy of your figures of assertions.

[lilchiva]

I'm really not that invested.

But, I can troll with the best of them and like arguing on the internet. Usually, I abstain; It's obnoxious behavior. But, every so often, like when someone turns my casual fun time into and intentionally obtuse troll, I indulge. This would be one of them there times.

Take care and have a lovely day!

[steer]

I genuinely had no intent to troll. I must have misinterpreted your remark -- and I did give a hasty response.

[lilchiva]

What would you call "Not actually reading someone's post, even after they call you out for not reading it the first time"? Seriously, if it's not a troll, what is that exactly? Are you known among your people as Steer Thee Twice Twitchy? Like, is that something we should all be aware of and make alloances for, when communicating with you?