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10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 13 2015, 11:19:53 UTC
I think number 8 about not apologising for how much you earn has quite a lot wrong with it from the point of view of Marxist economics and a rational approach to the universe.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For andrewducker January 13 2015, 11:33:30 UTC
At what point should you start apologising? Having more than the global median income (£11k)? Having more than necessary to not starve when other people are starving? Being in the global 1% (about £22,500)?

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For ext_2864067 January 13 2015, 12:20:19 UTC
The earnings thing: I'd say one certainly should not apologise. That's a fruitless waste of effort, meaningless to those affected.

If one cares about it, one should campaign to change the systematic inequities that it represents.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 13 2015, 13:42:59 UTC
The problem is that money is not an exchange for energy.

It’s an exchange for a) according to classical economics a balance of demand and supply influenced by marginal costs and marginal benefits of productive labour or b) a more Marxist view that it is an exchange or return for being in a position of power - such power might be derived from being the only person willing and able to do the job as per classical economics or it might be a more perfidious use of types of political power.

The other problem is that apologising for how much you earn is not a signal to the universe to turn off the abundance - or do anything about the abundance. The universe is not listening. I think it is incapable of listening.

Basically boat number 8 is sailing close to mystical hooee.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For andrewducker January 13 2015, 14:14:24 UTC
Just #8? They all seem rather similar in that regard to me.

And money _is_ an exchange for a person's time (or amalgamation of people's time/resources). I give someone money, they give me either their own time, or access to the results of someone else's time/labour. (Or the resources they've captured, theoretically through the investment of time).

So if you take "energy" to be a metaphor for "the effort that people put in" it's not that far off.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 13 2015, 14:37:05 UTC
As a leftward leaning, quasi-Marxist I’m not sure I accept that money is a return to the effort that people (at least the person holding the money) put in.

It’s often a return to the effort that their ancestor put in, some of that effort being nakedly criminal or utterly immoral. Often it’s just the luck of being in the right place at the right time, or vice versa.

Nor do I accept that it is always fair to give a monetary return to the effort someone puts in. Al Capone put a lot of effort in to extortion, I don’t think he should have made any money at it.

Number 8 entirely ignores systematic and systemic bias in the economic system.

I could pick holes in most of them but I’m grumpiest about number 8.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For andrewducker January 13 2015, 16:18:23 UTC
You do seem to be reading an awful lot into two lines telling people not to feel apologetic for having a nice job.

I definitely agree that the whole capitalist edifice is terribly problematic, but I'm not sure that millionaire mob bosses will be taking their advice from that site.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 13 2015, 17:05:22 UTC
They are very telling lines ( ... )

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 13 2015, 17:05:45 UTC
I appear not to have felt this radically left wing economically since I was 17.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For andrewducker January 13 2015, 17:24:19 UTC
There are some.

As a percentage of the people who are reading that page, I suspect it's near zero.

Your approach comes across similarly as when people read a site saying "Be more confident in yourself, and stand up for your beliefs!" and say "But what about all the sociopaths who are far too confident in their beleifs? You're sending them a terrible message!"

I know far more people who feel guilty about their income when they earn less than twice the median wage, than I do people who are worth an absolute fortune by subverting democratic institutions.

But possibly we move in different circles :-)

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 14 2015, 10:04:30 UTC
To be clear, my problem is less about ordinary working people feeling bad about their relatively good or relatively bad income.

It’s about the explicit assumption that income, especially significantly higher than average income is a result energy or effort rather than a mixture of factors including inheritance, luck and systematic bias in the system.

It’s also about the implicit assumption that the universe has some providential power and that if you keep apologising for your good fortune the universe will yellow card you for ingratitude and your house will burn down.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For andrewducker January 14 2015, 10:09:19 UTC
I definitely agree with both of those. The idea that "things are as they are because people deserve that" is a pernicious one that should be stomped on with big boots.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For danieldwilliam January 14 2015, 10:06:11 UTC
Also, partly my problem is that I appear to be suffering a slight sense of humour failure this week.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For channelpenguin January 14 2015, 09:48:24 UTC
THIS! i.e danieldwilliam 's long expo.

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Re: 10 Things You Should Never Apologise For naath January 13 2015, 16:20:59 UTC
In general money is exchanged for effort, because presumably you expect to get something in return for your money... (although sometimes the effort is seriously minimal; sideeye at some landlords in this city...)

But the amount of money you pay is not especially related to the amount of effort. The best-paid people in this country are paid more than 100x minimum wage - are those people *really* putting in 100x more effort than minimum wage workers? (I am sure they are not putting in zero effort, just not convinced it's *that much more* effort).

I'm not planning on being sorry for being paid more than average; but I am sorry that I'm part of a society that conspires to shit on people who are poor, and also I *do* feel bad for moaning about my (minor) financial difficulties in front of people who can't afford basics like food.

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