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Some thoughts on veils. cartesiandaemon September 17 2013, 11:38:01 UTC
Urk. I think the basic point is mostly valid, but he dangerously overstates how often facial communication is necessary ( ... )

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. danieldwilliam September 17 2013, 11:44:32 UTC
The whole conversation (if it’s a conversation) about veils makes me uncomfortable. It just smacks of two groups of men having a fight over what women should be allowed to wear.

Saying that, people with their faces covered or wearing mirrored sunglasses make me feel a bit uncomfortable for reasons I’m not entirely sure I can put my finger on. Partly, it’s to do with being able to see facial expressions and recognise people but I’m not entirely sure that’s all that I find uncomfortable.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. cartesiandaemon September 17 2013, 12:04:58 UTC
The whole conversation (if it’s a conversation) about veils makes me uncomfortable. It just smacks of two groups of men having a fight over what women should be allowed to wear.

Yeah, very much so. Although the ones saying "whatever they want" are hopefully off to a closer start than the ones saying "face-covering must be mandatory/banned".

Disturbingly, I can't remember reading anything about the topic from anyone who claimed to know _anything_ about it, even in countries where face covering has become much more prevalent.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. danieldwilliam September 17 2013, 12:09:54 UTC
Disturbingly, I can't remember reading anything about the topic from anyone who claimed to know _anything_ about it, even in countries where face covering has become much more prevalent.

Me neither. Well not much.

I recall some commentary along the line that the requirement was for modest dress and some suggestion that it was not specifically about covering parts of the body but about avoiding wearing ostentiously rich or flamboyant clothing but I'm not sure if that was someone coming from a position of deep knowledge or just back filling in a way that suited their position.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. cartesiandaemon September 17 2013, 13:51:44 UTC
FWIW, what I understand, lots of cultures (religious and not) have traditions of covering shoulders, hair, etc. There's typically a rationale, but often the _real_ reason is just "that's what we do", especially to show you're one of the group ( ... )

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. f4f3 September 17 2013, 14:00:55 UTC
It's about stopping the Angels hitting on you. Well, according to the Christian Canon post it is.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. danieldwilliam September 17 2013, 15:09:59 UTC
Are the Angles going to hit us with their cannon?

Bloody Saxons.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. f4f3 September 17 2013, 15:37:16 UTC
I was quick to edit that one :)

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. danieldwilliam September 17 2013, 12:28:53 UTC
I also wonder why it’s so high on people’s list of priorities.

Even if most wearers of a veil were being pressured into wearing one in some way, compared to the other bad things that happen to people, being made to wear a veil in public appears to me to be less important. Not unimportant, but I don’t think it would make a top ten social justice issue for me.

We have time for a national debate on some women wearing a veil but we don’t appear to have time for one on cultural norms on wearing high heels or the living wage or shelters for physically abuse women, or men or rape conviction rates.

Then it occurs to me that the question of the veil is a really good way of having a go at Muslims.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. alitheapipkin September 17 2013, 13:16:45 UTC
Exactly. There was a veil-wearing Muslim feminist* interviewed on Channel 4 news making exactly the same point - even if we are just considering issues facing Muslim women, it still shouldn't be the top of anyone's priority list.

*Yes, I think she can choose to wear a veil and still be a feminist. I'll concede that her choice may not be that free, but we all live in a society where our culture affects our choices, I agreed with Victoria Coren comparing it to the choice to change your name when you get married as a woman in her column yesterday.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. andrewducker September 17 2013, 13:26:58 UTC
"We all live in a society where our culture affects our choices"

I cannot conceive of a human culture where this wasn't the case. People are social and cultural by nature. I can conceive of one where people applied a lot less pressure on each other, of course, but most people would still feel the urge to fit in with what most other people did.

One of the things about being 'liberal' is accepting that I may not like other people's choices, but I accept that they are their choices to make, learn from, and make again, not mine to make for them.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. danieldwilliam September 17 2013, 15:01:15 UTC
I was thinking about tattoos and policing and about short haircuts and suits and accounting ( ... )

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. andrewducker September 18 2013, 12:11:58 UTC
I agree on police and tattoos - but the police have to be acceptable to everyone, which is going to mean certain things are not allowed. Some guidelines here:
http://www.metpolicecareers.co.uk/eligibility_requirements.html
and it seems to vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

I am frequently glad that as an IT person I don't have to fit in with the same norms as everyone else. I am _very_ glad that ties went out of the window about five years ago, and hopeful that mandatory shirts will follow in a few years...

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. autopope September 17 2013, 13:07:29 UTC
The whole conversation (if it’s a conversation) about veils makes me uncomfortable. It just smacks of two groups of men having a fight over what women should be allowed to wear.

More to the point: it's a special case of the general problem of humans enforcing dress codes as a tool for mediating social hierarchy. Everything from male officewear (ever wonder what a necktie is for?) to niqab is part of the pattern. We're surrounded by it, and those who transgress are targeted with severity that increases the greater the perceived infraction -- take Stephen Gough as an example for how far it can go.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. danieldwilliam September 17 2013, 14:51:06 UTC
Aye - I recall reading a case study about a Korean (IIRC) shipbuilding firm which was having difficulties with something like quality control. They traced the issue back to an overly rigid heirarchy which prevented the people building the ships from talking honestly with managers, who wore ties. Consequently everyone was stopped from wearing ties, the quality of the conversation improved, so did the quality of the ships. Good for Korea, not so good for the Clyde.

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Re: Some thoughts on veils. fub September 17 2013, 12:12:49 UTC
The essay sounds like it just wants anyone on either side of a customer service position to automatically have to show their face
Not how I read it. The essay specifically mentions shops, libraries and shopping centres ("etcetera") as places where facial communication is not needed (or at least, does not trump the right to wear a veil).

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