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gonzo21 December 14 2012, 11:40:43 UTC
There is quite substantial public opposition to Fracking, but I'm sure that will be overcome when people realise it might offset massive energy price increases in years to come.

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momentsmusicaux December 14 2012, 11:42:56 UTC
Yeah, but solving the energy problem is not done by extracting more damn fossil fuel to burn, surely!

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andrewducker December 14 2012, 11:46:25 UTC
Might be. If the extracted gas is cheaper and produces less CO2 than current coal then it could keep us going while we get solar/wind/water to a productive level.

I'm yet to be convinced that 100% renewables is possible, so we either need nuclear or fossil fuels in the mix.

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naath December 14 2012, 14:02:03 UTC
Have you read "Sustainable Energy with the Hot Air"?

Conclusion - it is possible but we have to carpet huge areas with renewable generation (especially if we want to do the generation in the UK). It is not very easy, especially if we continue refusing to reduce our usage.

Fracking helps with the problem of running out of gas before we have a replacement for gas. But it might just delay our investment in replacement technologies because we "don't need them yet", we really need to be putting money and effort into bringing technologies like wave power generation that are currently at the "it worked in my lab" stage up to the "commercially available" stage.

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andrewducker December 14 2012, 14:06:20 UTC
Not just read it, bought it for other people too!

Fortunately, Scotland is putting a fair bit of resources into wave power research, and Germany is doing likewise with wind/solar. I'm sure that the UK won't move as fast as it could do - but we do seem to be making some investment. I'm mostly hoping that over the next few years we'll hit grid parity with more renewables and it will become obvious that's where a lot of our energy should be coming from.

(With massive solar plants in Morocco)

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naath December 14 2012, 14:17:35 UTC
It's available free online http://www.withouthotair.com/

Solar farming the Sahara is an option he explores - it's not free though. Also it relies on nice Sahara owning people selling us electricity.

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andrewducker December 14 2012, 14:18:42 UTC
Yes, but I know people without e-readers...

And I know it's an option he explores, as I said, I read the book.

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naath December 14 2012, 14:19:12 UTC
Ah sorry, I read you Rong.

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andrewducker December 14 2012, 14:21:08 UTC
It's Friday afternoon, I'm frankly amazed that I still have the power of speech, let along the ability to process information on the internet!

Thank goodness the weekend starts in three hours!

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naath December 14 2012, 14:25:49 UTC
My favorite diagram is the fusion one - in the book it's a bit hard to tell; but when he did it as a lecture there were all these little diagram-sized squares for things like "coal" and "wind power" and then there was a box bigger than the size of the projector screen for "fusion".

Fusion however Does Not Work Yet. Anyone sitting around hoping that ITER is going to provide us all with Infinite Free Energy is counting chicks before the eggs are even laid.

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andrewducker December 14 2012, 14:28:02 UTC
Fusion would be lovely, but indeed, I am not holding my breath that it's actually feasible in situations other than giant balls of hydrogen.

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gonzo21 December 14 2012, 11:48:54 UTC
I absolutely agree, but I fear the bottom line will be as energy prices spike by apparently 8-10% every winter, the general public will demand that more and more fossil fuels be burnt to keep prices down.

Honestly, I think the only thing that can really save life on this planet is for governments to undergo large-scale nationalisation of the energy industry, so that they can force in price controls. Energy has to be controlled and sold to consumers at cost.

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naath December 14 2012, 14:10:21 UTC
No. Energy has to be permitted to get sufficiently expensive that people (en-mass) realise that they are better off spending money on reducing their energy use than continuing to use vast amounts of energy. We use too much energy.

There does need to be welfare intervention so that poor people don't freeze of course; although I'd prefer that to be more on the insulation side than the "free heating" side.

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gonzo21 December 14 2012, 14:13:54 UTC
I think we're at that point though. My parents have fitted every piece of household insulation they can, they use as little electricity as possible, and their bills are absolutely horrendous.

They're thinking about going back to burning wood. Which actually in this area, there has been a huge explosion in the demand for firewood, because more and more poorer people can no longer afford to heat their houses properly anymore.

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naath December 14 2012, 14:20:59 UTC
mmm, firewood might or might not be better than gas environmentally speaking (you grow the tree and then burn it, which is pretty carbon neutral - but on the other hand you could grow the tree and then NOT burn it, which is carbon negative)

People used to survive with firewood-only heating; although there used to be fewer people (so more potential wood-growing space per person).

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gonzo21 December 14 2012, 14:28:53 UTC
I don't know for sure but I think if people switched to wood on a large scale, the pollution problems would be significant.

It's interesting how much firewood prices have spiked though. 2 years ago if I had a pile of scrap wood in the garden, I had trouble giving it away. Now? People will pay good money for it. THe cost of firewood has roughly tripled.

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