"If they have the effrontery to cut off 13 million people, do you believe there will not be a significant number among them that will keep this mess going until the sun cools.
No--I don't believe there will. Because the majority of people in this godforsaken place have the attention span of fruit bats. They will go on their merry way, find another place where they can deposit their pseudo-artistic spooge, and the only people who will have lost will be the people who actually behaved themselves, and conducted themselves like responsible adults.
It's like those people we know who say, "Well, I'm real pissed off so I'm going to delete my ENTIRE journal and delete EVERYONE from my friend's list and I'm going to pick up my ball and go to another playground..."
And then come back two weeks later like nothing happened.
It's all a lot of bluster and blow, and it all means squat.
On what planet do these people live, where they think they can do anything they want, and SAY anything they want, and display whatever picture they want without having to take responsibility for it? What gives them the right to put the entire place in jeopardy so that they can jerk off?
I can back everything up into LJ book, that's true--but the point is that this is LIVE Journal, and unless I feel like backing up every time I post something (three hours minimum of back up for a ten minute post--and then only what I write, and not what I treasure in anyone else), that isn't going to save a lot of the things that happen in real time, and, once again, I can only save what's mine.
I'm tired of losing, Margo. I'm tired of feeling like something that's important to me is going to disappear because people can't stop the whining for three seconds and just DEAL with the fact that this place is here for us to USE--but it ultimately does NOT belong to us.
The fact that it's still here at all is an act of grace, and considering past experience, we could wake up tomorrow and find it ALL gone...just because fandom must have its bloody say.
I'm sorry, but I can not agree with you, not the least because you underestimate fanfic so badly. While your attitude is understandable, in that you do not value fantasy of any stripe, that really isn't the issue.
You point out the real issue yourself when you say that we are all here at the mercy of 6Apart. They own the place and none of it belongs to us. You wish to appease them and find it perfectly acceptable to label everyone who objects to 6As arbitrary highhandedness as some sort of moronic deviant sexual perverts. I find that unfair, not to mention untrue.
I don't personally follow the fanfic, but I have read some, and what I have read was full of humour and a sense of pure mischief. A very refreshing change from the corporate characterization of these groups as hotbeds of pedophilia.
Quite clearly, there is an element that is deviant and perverted, but there is clear legal procedures for dealing with them - ie, apply the laws of the land.
It is when the corporation starts making up non-existent laws to justify their arbitrary actions that I tend to say, "Hold on just a second!"
I say it is unjust and unacceptable, and if it means LJ is going to disappear then so be it. I would be sorry to see that happen, but there are other venues, and backup is possible, so no one needs to lose years of their life.
I also disagree that _everyone_ here has the attention span of fruitbats, even if many do. If LJ is destroyed by 6Apart's intransigence, there will be hell to pay, and 6Apart will suffer for it, perhaps not by the financial loss of LJ revenue, but certainly by the PR fall-out that will dog the rest of the corporation for the foreseable future. It is _not_ a good idea to piss off millions of articulate, motivated and dedicated writers many of whom have a very long attention span indeed, and lots of support networks, not only in the fandom communities, but in the real life financial and business communities.
You think this is far fetched? Just take a closer look at where the most cogent criticism of 6A is coming from.
In these cases, grave mistakes have been made on the part of Six Apart--anyone with two eyes in their head can see that. But at the same time, what POINT is there in going to the news page and venting 2408534 posts worth of ad hominem BILE in the face of the people you're trying to persuade? What good does it do to behave like LESS than reasonable adults, writers, artists, whatever in order to prove that you deserve any level of credible consideration?
I have no doubt in my mind that this is an issue that could be solved with a minimum of effort--if anyone was interested in solving it. They're not--they're interested in venting their spleens and yelling about how persecuted they are. Go read the posts, Margo--you'll see what I'm talking about. It isn't ABOUT solving the problem--it's about behaving like a mob.
I wouldn't listen to anyone who spoke to me that way--why in the world would anyone feel any differently than I do?
I don't believe that yelling, and insults, and bad behavior are going to solve the problem. And if these people are, as you say, bright and articulate, then why can't they demonstrate some of that in their posts to the people who run this place?
I don't have an objection to fanfic that is written as you say it is written--and I don't have a problem with people who are willing to write passionately to Six Apart to try to preserve what they've written and attempt to sort it out in a reasonable way. But when all they can come up with is, "Barak is a fucking doody-head", that doesn't convince me that their ability to express themselves responsibly is in evidence.
I don't like the way these things are being handled on either side--but the only solution is for someone to resolve to take the high road, calm down, and attempt to solve it, rather than use it as an excuse for more imaginary persecution.
If Six Apart doesn't know what to do, then someone has to TELL them what to do, in a rational, well-thought out way, that would satisfy both their interests and the interests of the fanfic population.
No it's not asking too much, and anyone who had been following the issue when it first began could see that many people were offering polite and reasonable suggestions on how to reach a workable compromise.
It seemed to be working in that Barack responded with sensible answers to issues that people needed to have clarified. Then he/6A did a complete and arbitrary about-face and ignored or ridiculed those who were justifiably outraged.
Someone specifically asked him if stories of a sexual nature about fictional minors would be considered child porn. Barak's response was consistent with current US laws that he said such stories would not be so considered because those people are not real. Then they completely reversed themselves because of some harmless nude erotica of an adult version of Harry Potter.
That was more two-faced than most people could stomach. Not to mention disrespectful in it's sheer hypocracy and the attendent silence of 6A on the topic.
Then burr68 goes and _taunts_ the users who were voicing perfectly legitimate complaints over this continuing breach of trust... Well, things are waaaay past the rational, well thought out stage at this point.
So, I can only caution you and everyone else to back up your journals, 'cause this ain't over yet. If 6A were looking for a chance to ditch LJ, they couldn't have orchestrated it any better. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that this is exactly what's happening.
One thing to bear in mind is that, to my knowledge, burr68 is not an employee of Six Apart, but is a community volunteer.
He's also a meanspirited twonk, but that's neither here nor there--the point is that he is part of this community.
Barack is less than competent when it comes to customer service, and the truth is that he didn't know the law well enough to know what he was talking about. Which is unfortunate. Also unfortunate is the fact that he failed to announce the reversal when it came.
But the point is this--do the people who post this stuff not know that it often crosses the line?
Oh yes--let's take this pretty picture I drew of HP getting a blow job over to the convent, and maybe the nuns will hang it among the icons!!!
Come on, Margo--how shocked could they have been to know that there would be people who would regard that as pornography--and CHILD pornography at that, considering the subject?
Let's be real--people know what they write, what they draw, what they publish, and they have a pretty good idea who their audience is...and who it is not. And they HAVE to know that there are people out there who aren't going to find it charming, or edifying, or acceptable.
Do I think they should be censored completely?
Not at all.
I just think that it would behoove them to take it to their closed community and post it there, where those who would appreciate it could still see it, but those who would be offended by it could not hold Six Apart responsible for publishing kiddie porn.
I don't have to look very far to see the correlation...
My parents were once reasonable, tolerant people...and now they are raging right wing fundie crazies.
Why?
Because for years they felt run over by people with whom they disagreed, and saw what they perceived as "special treatment" and "allowance" that they were not getting.
I have to say that I think they needed Rush Limbaugh to TELL them they were being downtrodden--but he said it and something in them resounded to that, so it couldn't have been a thought too far outside their consciousness as to be irretrievable.
And don't think that Bush & CO didn't take HUGE advantage of that...
When someone comes along and tells you that you're RIGHT to resent what these horrible liberals have done to your country, you're going to hear that "understanding" and "compassion" and glom right onto it.
Which is the ONLY reason that fruit loop got a second term.
"Now look to the legions of morons like these fanfic people..."
Once again, I have to object. There are undoubtedly legions of morons out there, but they are not any more heavily represented in fanfic than anywhere else. Fanfic BTW is not the same thing as kiddie porn or sexual perversion.
What is heavily represented in fanfic is a lot of talented dedicated and prolific writers with great imaginations.
As for the sexuality explicit in some fanfic, it is no more blatant than what you will find in any library or Chapters book store. Read anything by Laurel K. Hamilton lately?
The difference there is that Laurel K. Hamilton is entirely responsible for what Laurel K. Hamilton writes. Her name is on it. She's the one who gets the hate mail, should it come.
I haven't necessarily seen any one particular poster of sexually explicit fan stuff hunted down and made to answer for what they write the same way that Six Apart has been targeted for allowing the writer to post it on their server. Six Apart has the ultimate responsibility for what is seen on this website. That's very different from an author who chooses to write something, on their own, and a publisher who chooses to publish a book only after having read it.
Personal responsibility--that's all I'm asking for. The same personal responsibility that ANY artist takes on when they make their work public, anywhere but here.
ALL websites censor the works that are published on it, in some way or another, to protect themselves and show themselves responsible.
Why should LJ be any less self-protective than, say, DeviantArt?
Well, there were about 500 people hunted down a couple of months ago - most of them had nothing to do with anything that could be considered legally compromising.
I don't know what DeviantArt is, so I really can't answer that question. But as for 6Apart beingt in need of self protection, if they stick with the existing laws, there is no need for the kind of arbitrary censorship they are indulging in now.
Personal responsibility is not an issue when the fanfic does not violate existing legal standards.
Not true--because there is more than one kind of law.
There is criminal law, and there is civil law.
Just ask O.J. Simpson!
And while one may be able to justify oneself in criminal court that no law has been violated, that doesn't mean that the same tactic will hold water in CIVIL court, when some entity decides to sue your ass off for not being a responsible webhost and for allowing the posting of kiddie porn--or even IMPLIED kiddie porn.
And no, those 500 people were NOT targeted in the way to which I was referring. They had their right to participate here threatened--but it was Six Apart that was being threatened with civil action regarding the things those people were posting. To my knowledge, not one of them received a threat for a civil suit--and to my knowledge, no one here ever has--in regards to any fiction they posted.
Six Apart takes on an enormous civil risk in allowing a certain level of freedom here--that's why all websites contain a TOS. DeviantArt is an art community that allows the posting of all sorts of artistic works, but those who post works that are clearly of an adult nature must do so behind a warning for adult content. Often, one must be a member to view it. And that's a website that is dedicated strictly to artistic expression--and even they take those precautions.
o my knowledge, not one of them received a threat for a civil suit--and to my knowledge, no one here ever has--in regards to any fiction they posted.
Ghad, I remember the C&D flap in the Highlander fanfic community - ooh, must be ten years ago now.
Everyone knew fanfic existed - but TPTB were able to ignore it because it was under the table - till someone handed a 'zine one of the actors whose character was portrayed in an erotic story in her 'zine.
uh.
Then she advertised the 'zines "as read by X", at the convention, in the hucksters' hall. Where TPTB couldn't avoid seeing it.
Suddenly there were lawyers' letters flying around - "Cease and Desist" notices and threats of court action - and a lot of people who had never even written fanfic (gen, het, slash - whatever) were getting these legal threats, just because their names were associated with the fanfic community ... maybe they posted a reply to a web-forum, maybe they were mentioned in a letters column, etc. It got very very nasty.
Trust me - getting a journal deleted is hardly the worst that could happen - the owners of the universes the fanfic is set in could get involved. Some of them are very protective of their "property". Just because an artwork is original doesn't mean that they won't regard it as infringement because it's based on their property. It's a "derivative work".
I agree, personal responsibility is the motivating factor. I say it was not an issue because they (the fanfic community) were already engaging it in not violating legal standards.
Oops. Was I not clear enough? If so, let me apologize. What I was wanting to say was:
Consider the relatively small subset of fanfic types who are causing the current LJ grief, and look to the other people in other walks of life who are being idiots in like manner. Together, they make up legions of morons.
It's just that the above required a lot of typing...
Heck, James Blish was a fanfic author, when you think about it, and he wasn't an idiot.
No--I don't believe there will. Because the majority of people in this godforsaken place have the attention span of fruit bats. They will go on their merry way, find another place where they can deposit their pseudo-artistic spooge, and the only people who will have lost will be the people who actually behaved themselves, and conducted themselves like responsible adults.
It's like those people we know who say, "Well, I'm real pissed off so I'm going to delete my ENTIRE journal and delete EVERYONE from my friend's list and I'm going to pick up my ball and go to another playground..."
And then come back two weeks later like nothing happened.
It's all a lot of bluster and blow, and it all means squat.
On what planet do these people live, where they think they can do anything they want, and SAY anything they want, and display whatever picture they want without having to take responsibility for it? What gives them the right to put the entire place in jeopardy so that they can jerk off?
I can back everything up into LJ book, that's true--but the point is that this is LIVE Journal, and unless I feel like backing up every time I post something (three hours minimum of back up for a ten minute post--and then only what I write, and not what I treasure in anyone else), that isn't going to save a lot of the things that happen in real time, and, once again, I can only save what's mine.
I'm tired of losing, Margo. I'm tired of feeling like something that's important to me is going to disappear because people can't stop the whining for three seconds and just DEAL with the fact that this place is here for us to USE--but it ultimately does NOT belong to us.
The fact that it's still here at all is an act of grace, and considering past experience, we could wake up tomorrow and find it ALL gone...just because fandom must have its bloody say.
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You point out the real issue yourself when you say that we are all here at the mercy of 6Apart. They own the place and none of it belongs to us. You wish to appease them and find it perfectly acceptable to label everyone who objects to 6As arbitrary highhandedness as some sort of moronic deviant sexual perverts. I find that unfair, not to mention untrue.
I don't personally follow the fanfic, but I have read some, and what I have read was full of humour and a sense of pure mischief. A very refreshing change from the corporate characterization of these groups as hotbeds of pedophilia.
Quite clearly, there is an element that is deviant and perverted, but there is clear legal procedures for dealing with them - ie, apply the laws of the land.
It is when the corporation starts making up non-existent laws to justify their arbitrary actions that I tend to say, "Hold on just a second!"
I say it is unjust and unacceptable, and if it means LJ is going to disappear then so be it. I would be sorry to see that happen, but there are other venues, and backup is possible, so no one needs to lose years of their life.
I also disagree that _everyone_ here has the attention span of fruitbats, even if many do. If LJ is destroyed by 6Apart's intransigence, there will be hell to pay, and 6Apart will suffer for it, perhaps not by the financial loss of LJ revenue, but certainly by the PR fall-out that will dog the rest of the corporation for the foreseable future. It is _not_ a good idea to piss off millions of articulate, motivated and dedicated writers many of whom have a very long attention span indeed, and lots of support networks, not only in the fandom communities, but in the real life financial and business communities.
You think this is far fetched? Just take a closer look at where the most cogent criticism of 6A is coming from.
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In these cases, grave mistakes have been made on the part of Six Apart--anyone with two eyes in their head can see that. But at the same time, what POINT is there in going to the news page and venting 2408534 posts worth of ad hominem BILE in the face of the people you're trying to persuade? What good does it do to behave like LESS than reasonable adults, writers, artists, whatever in order to prove that you deserve any level of credible consideration?
I have no doubt in my mind that this is an issue that could be solved with a minimum of effort--if anyone was interested in solving it. They're not--they're interested in venting their spleens and yelling about how persecuted they are. Go read the posts, Margo--you'll see what I'm talking about. It isn't ABOUT solving the problem--it's about behaving like a mob.
I wouldn't listen to anyone who spoke to me that way--why in the world would anyone feel any differently than I do?
I don't believe that yelling, and insults, and bad behavior are going to solve the problem. And if these people are, as you say, bright and articulate, then why can't they demonstrate some of that in their posts to the people who run this place?
I don't have an objection to fanfic that is written as you say it is written--and I don't have a problem with people who are willing to write passionately to Six Apart to try to preserve what they've written and attempt to sort it out in a reasonable way. But when all they can come up with is, "Barak is a fucking doody-head", that doesn't convince me that their ability to express themselves responsibly is in evidence.
I don't like the way these things are being handled on either side--but the only solution is for someone to resolve to take the high road, calm down, and attempt to solve it, rather than use it as an excuse for more imaginary persecution.
If Six Apart doesn't know what to do, then someone has to TELL them what to do, in a rational, well-thought out way, that would satisfy both their interests and the interests of the fanfic population.
Is that asking too much?
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It seemed to be working in that Barack responded with sensible answers to issues that people needed to have clarified. Then he/6A did a complete and arbitrary about-face and ignored or ridiculed those who were justifiably outraged.
Someone specifically asked him if stories of a sexual nature about fictional minors would be considered child porn. Barak's response was consistent with current US laws that he said such stories would not be so considered because those people are not real. Then they completely reversed themselves because of some harmless nude erotica of an adult version of Harry Potter.
That was more two-faced than most people could stomach. Not to mention disrespectful in it's sheer hypocracy and the attendent silence of 6A on the topic.
Then burr68 goes and _taunts_ the users who were voicing perfectly legitimate complaints over this continuing breach of trust... Well, things are waaaay past the rational, well thought out stage at this point.
So, I can only caution you and everyone else to back up your journals, 'cause this ain't over yet. If 6A were looking for a chance to ditch LJ, they couldn't have orchestrated it any better. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that this is exactly what's happening.
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He's also a meanspirited twonk, but that's neither here nor there--the point is that he is part of this community.
Barack is less than competent when it comes to customer service, and the truth is that he didn't know the law well enough to know what he was talking about. Which is unfortunate. Also unfortunate is the fact that he failed to announce the reversal when it came.
But the point is this--do the people who post this stuff not know that it often crosses the line?
Oh yes--let's take this pretty picture I drew of HP getting a blow job over to the convent, and maybe the nuns will hang it among the icons!!!
Come on, Margo--how shocked could they have been to know that there would be people who would regard that as pornography--and CHILD pornography at that, considering the subject?
Let's be real--people know what they write, what they draw, what they publish, and they have a pretty good idea who their audience is...and who it is not. And they HAVE to know that there are people out there who aren't going to find it charming, or edifying, or acceptable.
Do I think they should be censored completely?
Not at all.
I just think that it would behoove them to take it to their closed community and post it there, where those who would appreciate it could still see it, but those who would be offended by it could not hold Six Apart responsible for publishing kiddie porn.
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What thought is that?
Look to the current political climate. Now look to the legions of morons like these fanfic people, and see where the climate comes from.
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My parents were once reasonable, tolerant people...and now they are raging right wing fundie crazies.
Why?
Because for years they felt run over by people with whom they disagreed, and saw what they perceived as "special treatment" and "allowance" that they were not getting.
I have to say that I think they needed Rush Limbaugh to TELL them they were being downtrodden--but he said it and something in them resounded to that, so it couldn't have been a thought too far outside their consciousness as to be irretrievable.
And don't think that Bush & CO didn't take HUGE advantage of that...
When someone comes along and tells you that you're RIGHT to resent what these horrible liberals have done to your country, you're going to hear that "understanding" and "compassion" and glom right onto it.
Which is the ONLY reason that fruit loop got a second term.
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Once again, I have to object. There are undoubtedly legions of morons out there, but they are not any more heavily represented in fanfic than anywhere else. Fanfic BTW is not the same thing as kiddie porn or sexual perversion.
What is heavily represented in fanfic is a lot of talented dedicated and prolific writers with great imaginations.
As for the sexuality explicit in some fanfic, it is no more blatant than what you will find in any library or Chapters book store. Read anything by Laurel K. Hamilton lately?
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I haven't necessarily seen any one particular poster of sexually explicit fan stuff hunted down and made to answer for what they write the same way that Six Apart has been targeted for allowing the writer to post it on their server. Six Apart has the ultimate responsibility for what is seen on this website. That's very different from an author who chooses to write something, on their own, and a publisher who chooses to publish a book only after having read it.
Personal responsibility--that's all I'm asking for. The same personal responsibility that ANY artist takes on when they make their work public, anywhere but here.
ALL websites censor the works that are published on it, in some way or another, to protect themselves and show themselves responsible.
Why should LJ be any less self-protective than, say, DeviantArt?
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I don't know what DeviantArt is, so I really can't answer that question. But as for 6Apart beingt in need of self protection, if they stick with the existing laws, there is no need for the kind of arbitrary censorship they are indulging in now.
Personal responsibility is not an issue when the fanfic does not violate existing legal standards.
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There is criminal law, and there is civil law.
Just ask O.J. Simpson!
And while one may be able to justify oneself in criminal court that no law has been violated, that doesn't mean that the same tactic will hold water in CIVIL court, when some entity decides to sue your ass off for not being a responsible webhost and for allowing the posting of kiddie porn--or even IMPLIED kiddie porn.
And no, those 500 people were NOT targeted in the way to which I was referring. They had their right to participate here threatened--but it was Six Apart that was being threatened with civil action regarding the things those people were posting. To my knowledge, not one of them received a threat for a civil suit--and to my knowledge, no one here ever has--in regards to any fiction they posted.
Six Apart takes on an enormous civil risk in allowing a certain level of freedom here--that's why all websites contain a TOS. DeviantArt is an art community that allows the posting of all sorts of artistic works, but those who post works that are clearly of an adult nature must do so behind a warning for adult content. Often, one must be a member to view it. And that's a website that is dedicated strictly to artistic expression--and even they take those precautions.
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Ghad, I remember the C&D flap in the Highlander fanfic community - ooh, must be ten years ago now.
Everyone knew fanfic existed - but TPTB were able to ignore it because it was under the table - till someone handed a 'zine one of the actors whose character was portrayed in an erotic story in her 'zine.
uh.
Then she advertised the 'zines "as read by X", at the convention, in the hucksters' hall. Where TPTB couldn't avoid seeing it.
Suddenly there were lawyers' letters flying around - "Cease and Desist" notices and threats of court action - and a lot of people who had never even written fanfic (gen, het, slash - whatever) were getting these legal threats, just because their names were associated with the fanfic community ... maybe they posted a reply to a web-forum, maybe they were mentioned in a letters column, etc. It got very very nasty.
Trust me - getting a journal deleted is hardly the worst that could happen - the owners of the universes the fanfic is set in could get involved. Some of them are very protective of their "property". Just because an artwork is original doesn't mean that they won't regard it as infringement because it's based on their property. It's a "derivative work".
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Oh, wow, I have to disagree. My take is that personal responsibility is the motivation for adhering to the legal standards.
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:o)
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Consider the relatively small subset of fanfic types who are causing the current LJ grief, and look to the other people in other walks of life who are being idiots in like manner. Together, they make up legions of morons.
It's just that the above required a lot of typing...
Heck, James Blish was a fanfic author, when you think about it, and he wasn't an idiot.
At least I don't think he was...
:o)
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