Mary Sues in Harry Potter - Part II (continued)
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Because the post-HBP essay on Ginny's traits as a Mary Sue is very long, I split it into two parts. Before commenting, please read part I of this essay. Thank you. :)
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Because the post-HBP essay on Ginny's traits as a Mary Sue is very long, I split it into two parts. Before commenting, please read part I of this essay. Thank you. :)
( Read more... )
Pansy: she's was definelty used to make it clear that Ginny is considered pretty by the hogwarts male population, but you can't have all the heroine's be plain bookworms now can you?
Of course not. But I don't think either Ginny, or Hermione or Luna can be considered Heroines.
I think it's something that makes Ginny stand out from Luna and Hermione as being her own thing, and I don't think her popularity is a bad thing, but it's not an entirely good thing either. Someone has to be the good looking on in high school, and it's not always the "Fleur" type.
Right, but unlike Fleur, Ginny fits the Mary Sue criteria better and her popularity is one of the items that do this. I don't think it's good/bad either, but I do think it is Mary Sue-ish and I would say the same with regards to Fleur's beauty for instance, though unlike Ginny, she certainly comes across as flawed.
I think it's also important to note that the not all the boys are necessarily in love with her, they just think she's hot.
Thinking the character is hot is a common Mary Sue trait. The characters around the Mary Sue won't always fall in love with her, but they'll definitely like her/consider her hot.
There are a lot boys who haven't shown an interest in Ginny like Malfoy, Seamus, Neville, Zacharias, McClaggan, etc. So she obviously does not have the Mary Sue power to make every male fall in love with her.
Not every male around a Mary Sue will fall in love with her. Even Mary Sue authors realise that's too much of a stretch even for them. As such, some of them usually are completely happy just by having the majority of characters liking her.
Furthermore JKR mentions on her site that her sister was always considered the "pretty one" while she was the "smart one". My guess is that Rowling is being loyal to her own experience of being close to someone who perhaps felt inadequate intelligent wise because she was the "pretty one", and a girl who conversly felt inadequate looks wise because she was the "smart one". (my own experience is tainted that notion too, I must admit).
Interesting comment, but I don't see how it counters Ginny's Sue-ish attributes?
Clearly, Hermione is friends with Ginny, so she's obviously going to like her, but the two of them did have that little tiff regarding the sectusempra issue.
Who had the last word in that scene? Ginny. This is why I discount this scene as a flaw of Ginny, because it still portrays her in a positive light (speaking strictly about the story, not about what you and I might think about her behaviour in that scene).
They recognize that she never shuts up and that she can be a pain in the butt
I know Ron says she never shuts up, but where is the pain in the butt issue alluded to?
'd be more concerned with what the average student feels about her, beyond her looks.
Which is...?
As for Slughorn, he favoured Hermione for her intelligence, and I still don't think is good opinion has really a lot of weight.
It does count, because Slughorn usually invites to his little meetings only famous students or students with influence and so on. Ginny gets special treatment, not to mention excessive compliment with regards to the bat bogey hex.
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I never said they were Heroines, I said they were heroines. There's a difference.
Interesting comment, but I don't see how it counters Ginny's Sue-ish attributes?
Because Mary-Sue is all about wish fulfillment. The burden of proof is on you to show that Ginny is JKR's wishfulfillment, not that Ginny possesses certain traits. Saying that Ginny is popular, pretty, athletic, and funny simply tells us that you've read the book. Then, saying that these characteristics make her a Mary Sue tells us your feelings, but it doesn't tell us JKR's.
If JKR is using Ginny's traits for a specific plot or thematic purpose, then we have to judge it for that purpose, not our preconceived notions about a person with that specific trait. Popularity in itself is not a Mary Sue quality. You need to give the cirucmstances to prove that JKR is living through Ginny to feel like the popular girl at school. Without book 7, it's hard to prove my case, but Austen is a perfect example of what I mean when I rever to difference between a trait in itself and a trait with intention. Mr. Dary is fabulously wealthy. On the surface, it's a Gary-Stu trait. However, Austen had to make Darcy wealthy in order to expose Elizabeth's pride and prejudices. Thus, his riches have a specific purpose and are not some whimsical idealistic vision of a man.
Your test also has a serious flaw because it's to catch fan fiction Mary Sues. The question regarding Sue being in gryffindor is significant for fan fiction because those writers end up creating Mary Sues due to a desire to be a part of the Hogwarts gang. They want to be a part of JKR's world...why would JKR create Ginny to live in her own world? The way some people talk about Ginny and Rowling you'd think that she was the only character created by Rowling, and that JKR was trying fit Ginny in with Harry and Hermione who were created by some higher being. JKR created Harry and Hermione, and she has experience being the popular, athletic and intelligent one through them! Why would she save all her wish fulfillment for Ginny? What's more, what does Ginny offer her that other character's don't? Nothing. Thus, since Rowling didn't create Ginny to actualize some unfulfilled desire she must have made Ginny that way for a specific reason, and I for one am going to read book 7 with an open mind and see what Rowling has to tell me.
In the end, your essay proves that you don't like Ginny, or popular girls, but your opinion doesn't make a Mary Sue: Rowling's does and that test reveals nothing of Rowling's intentions because it's takes traits out of character and out of context. You're looking at "what" but not "how".
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Why is this difference relevant for the Mary Sue hypothesis?
The burden of proof is on you to show that Ginny is JKR's wishfulfillment, not that Ginny possesses certain traits.
Not really. It is a fact that every human being has an Ego and it is thus subject to wish fulfilment. I analyzed this in my essay. I don't need to know how exactly is Ginny's Rowling wish fulfiment device in order to analyze the traits that would qualify her for this position, because every human being is subject to wish fulfilment by default.
Saying that Ginny is popular, pretty, athletic, and funny simply tells us that you've read the book.
Then I believe the same should go for every Mary Sue ever sporked at deleterius. Did those who pointed at said Mary Sues bother to interview the author in order to analyze the possibility of them creating Mary Sues?
Popularity in itself is not a Mary Sue quality.
Yes, it is, just like super powers, super beauty, super *anything* are.
Thus, his riches have a specific purpose and are not some whimsical idealistic vision of a man.
Yes, but Darcy has flaws that are asserted in the text, doesn't he? Such as when all those people around him comment on his pride and how insufferable it is.
They want to be a part of JKR's world...why would JKR create Ginny to live in her own world?
I see your point, but I still believe that is one of the questions that really add up to the MS hypothesis, seeing as Rowling herself has stated at one point that she would want to be in Gryffindor herself.
Thus, since Rowling didn't create Ginny to actualize some unfulfilled desire
This is subject for debate. The reason Harry and Hermione do not suffice as wish fulfilment are two, IMO: 1) Harry is male and thus he is the objective that can be achieved via wish fulfilment; 2) Hermione is a caricature of Rowling's real self. As such, her very provinence disqualifies her as a possible MS. I dealt with this in my essay, so I won't repeat myself.
What's more, what does Ginny offer her that other character's don't?
Popularity, beauty, idealism, and the Hero. Just to name a few.
In the end, your essay proves that you don't like Ginny, or popular girls,
This was uncalled for. My essay deals with Ginny's popularity in a single paragraph and I don't believe I even mention I dislike Ginny. Even if I do at some point, it is not the focus of the essay.
but your opinion doesn't make a Mary Sue:
No, which is why my essay wasn't an opinion piece, but an essay, which means I gave arguments for every little thing I said. There's a difference. :)
Rowling's does and that test reveals nothing of Rowling's intentions because it's takes traits out of character and out of context. You're looking at "what" but not "how".
Which proves that Ginny is not a Mary Sue how exactly?
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But I wasn't talking about his entire character or his pride, I'm talking about his wealth. By your standards, a character would have to be absolutely average in everyway with no strengths or unique qualities in order to avoid Stu or Sue traits. You seem to be saying that Mr. Darcy's wealth is a "Gary Stu" quality and that the only thing redeeming him are his flaws such as his pride.
I'm saying that Darcy's wealth is not a "Stu" element at all and if he were put through the test he should not recieve a point for being rich. While being rich may be considered an ideal circumstance in some novels, it's actually an obstacle between Elizabeth and Darcy's love. Being rich is seen as a negative thing by Elizabeth because of the snobbery and mean-spiritedness that arises from many well off families.
My point is that certain traits or circumstances are seen as being ideal for some, but seen as being negative by others.
If we look at Ginny being pretty and popular, I don't believe that JK Rowling is portraying this an ideal or positive element at all. First we have Pansy's bitterness against Ginny for being pretty, we have that slimy dealer on the street talk about protecting Ginny's "pretty neck", and we have two ex-boyfriends who treated her like a breakable China doll. Outsiders seem to see her as this "pretty little thing". Is that how you'd want to be known?
The only characters who seem to take her seriously are the ones who know her as a person, the ones who like her despite the facts she's a "pretty little thing". Harry himself says the she's far too popular for her own good: he recognizes this popularity as being a silly little obstacle, and not a core trait. Ginny's popularity is as central to her character as Harry's popularity.
You see Ginny as a character who slipped out of JKR's grasp on a whimsical fantasy of being popular, yet I believe she is very much Rowling's control and that Rowling made her popular for a reason and a purpose beyond wishfulfillment.
Her "sportiness" is also another trait I find odd to be considered a "Mary Sue" trait. There are still so many athletic girls today who are made fun of for being lesbians since they like to play sports. Since when is it ideal for a girl to be athletic? I'd say being a cheerleader is much more of a Mary Sue trait. Moreover, she's never described as looking beautiful as she glides through the air to catch the snitch perfectly. She rams herself in the commentators box and we simply know she's a good chaser. She's not the star of the team and she's not as good a seeker as Harry.
I think there's definetly a double standard that Ginny is considered a Mary Sue for being athletic, yet Hermione is not considered a Mary Sue for being highly intelligent. This standard is especially fallacious since Ginny is never acknowledge as being the "best of" in comparison to the entire school, unlike Hermione.
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Not really, what I am trying to say is that for every "spelled out in the text quality" there should be a "spelled out in the text flaw" to balance it. This doesn't mean that the character is avergae. If Darcy's wealth is a quality, which is balanced as you pointed below, then this doesn't make his wealth average, nor does it make him an average character - it just created balance and it makes him human.
I'm saying that Darcy's wealth is not a "Stu" element at all and if he were put through the test he should not recieve a point for being rich. While being rich may be considered an ideal circumstance in some novels, it's actually an obstacle between Elizabeth and Darcy's love. Being rich is seen as a negative thing by Elizabeth because of the snobbery and mean-spiritedness that arises from many well off families.
Excellent point.
First we have Pansy's bitterness against Ginny for being pretty, we have that slimy dealer on the street talk about protecting Ginny's "pretty neck",
They're negative characters, which is why they don't count; bad guys are supposed to hate the good guys, so them being bitter, slimy, etc. doesn't count. To make this a little bit more clear, compare it to the Darcy situation you mentioned yourself. Now, that was a perfect example of a balanced quality - because even Elizabeth, who is the good guy, confirms Darcy's flaws. This is what's not happening in Ginny's case.
and we have two ex-boyfriends who treated her like a breakable China doll.
While I can see your point in Dean's case, I don't remember enough about Michael Corner to see if he was treating her as a "breakable China doll". Could you expand, please?
In Dean's case, the fact that he treats Ginny as a breakable China doll is there to show us how unsuited he is for her, not the other way around, so I don't see why it would constitute a flaw of Ginny.
The only characters who seem to take her seriously are the ones who know her as a person, the ones who like her despite the facts she's a "pretty little thing".
That may have been true pre OotP and HBP, but currently I believe it is inaccurate. If this statement was true, then how is Slughorn's preference explained with it? He certainly doesn't like her because he knows her as a person and he certainly doesn't care about her being pretty, instead he uses loads of superlatives to describe her Bat Bogey Hex.
She rams herself in the commentators box and we simply know she's a good chaser. She's not the star of the team and she's not as good a seeker as Harry.
Actually, what's MSish about those traits was explained in my essay. I used quite large portions of canon to show why this was MSish, so please feel free to look at that part again, speciffically part II, point 3. :)
I think there's definetly a double standard that Ginny is considered a Mary Sue for being athletic, yet Hermione is not considered a Mary Sue for being highly intelligent.
It's not, actually, and I explained why here; see point IV, assertion 5. Mainly, there are two reasons why Hermione is not a Sue: 1) her obvious flaws, confirmed by many characters and 2) the author herself, who views her as flawed.
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I think you misunderstood my point.
Going back to Harry Potter, let's look at Harry's fame. We all know Harry hates attention, and hates being a "celebrity" despite many characters calling him a concieted attention seeker. We get Harry's point of you so it's easy to see the difference between the real Harry and the celebrity Harry that other characters have created in their minds.
Similarly, Pansy's perception of Ginny being "Miss Popular" is very similar to people calling Harry an "attention seeker". Her popularity has as much to do with her personality, as Harry's fame does with his.
While I can see your point in Dean's case, I don't remember enough about Michael Corner to see if he was treating her as a "breakable China doll". Could you expand, please?
In Dean's case, the fact that he treats Ginny as a breakable China doll is there to show us how unsuited he is for her, not the other way around, so I don't see why it would constitute a flaw of Ginny.
In OotP during a DA meeting, Harry notes how good Ginny is at disarming Michael, and how much Michael sucked, but Harry suspected it was because Michael didn't want to hurt her.
It's not showing Ginny's flaws (it actually shows a lot of her good qualities) but rather, it's showing that this "a lot of boys like her" portrayal is not simply to show how pretty she is, but rather to set up a tension between the real Ginny and people's perceptions of her, and a in my opinion, a possible conflict between her and Harry.
Her brothers, her mother, her ex-boyfriends and Bellatrix have all patronized Ginny to the point of viewing her as this weak and helpless pretty little thing that needs to be protected. In a sense, they see her as the damsel in distress she was when Tom Riddle had locked her away in the chamber.
Then, on the otherside of it, Ginny is courageous, fiesty, sporty and can cast a mean hex. Qualities that seem to be negating the "damsel in distress" persona, and I can't help but feel that Ginny doth protest too much at times. It's like she has something to prove to the world by focusing her magical ability on making hexes, playing Quidditch, and inisting on helping out in rescue missions. And, why not show that Ginny's a very talented witch through potions, charms or care of magical creatures? Why hexes? If JK Rowling simply got lost in Ginny being this super fantasitic witch, why didn't she illustrate her abilities in all these areas? I think Ginny's speciality with hexes was carefully and deliberately chosen to reveal what kind of magic Ginny focuses on, and thereby revealing something about her character.
Rowling loves to explore the complexities of the hero, so why not explore the complexities of the damsel in distress? In my opinion, there's a definite tension between who Ginny is and how others percieve her. Accordingly, I think Harry dumping Ginny to protect her is not going to sit well with Ginny after awhile, and she'll begin to feel like the trophy girlfriend waiting for her hero to collect her as his prize for destroying the villain.
Thus, I don't think her being the girl that a lot of boys like, is a Mary Sue trait, but rather a negative trait that's part of an obstacle that Ginny's character must face.
When it comes to her flaws, I suspect that Ginny will hit a hurdle for trying too hard to prove she's tough. It's great that she wants to assert her independence, but there's a point when it's just becomes agression, and one can end up hurting others, rather than simply preventing oneself from being hurt.
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