Protective Measures: Avoiding Awkward Podfic Situations

[podmod]

For the most part, podficcers and authors get along pretty well but there have always been the occasional situations where things don't go as smoothly. Maybe an author doesn't get podfic, has been rude or hurtful in their response to a request for permission to podfic. Maybe they asked for something unusual when giving their permission, such as a

Comments

[shinetheway]

Um.

Well, first of all, if you have an "open" podfic policy, by which I'm assuming you mean a blanket policy, people aren't going to ask you if podfic is okay since your policy already says that it's okay. And so you aren't going to be saying no.

If you expect people to ask first, then I wouldn't consider you to have an "open" podfic policy, no matter how pro-podfic you are.

And if you're going to say yes to some people and say no to others, based on particular fic or particular circumstances that the person asking is going to have no way of knowing, well, yeah. I'd like to know that by asking you, I'm taking a risk. Maybe not a risk that you'll set my house on fire for my impudence, or devastate my emotional health with scorn, but it's a risk nonetheless. And honestly, yes, I'd probably save my energy and podfic someone else.

Beyond that--are you saying that your rights as an author to have podfic done according to your preferences trump my rights to, you know, KNOW IN ADVANCE that it's going to be an ordeal to ask and to just not bother? Because that's what your argument is, essentially: I can't appear on a list of people worthy of caution, because then people might think I'm actually worthy of caution and won't ask me for permission--and then how will I be able to select who I want to podfic my fic and how they do it? It seems you're arguing that your right to grant and withhold permission at random somehow *shouldn't* earn you the label of capricious and difficult to deal with.

I would also question that your right to change your mind and withdraw permission from podfic you've already said yes to trumps my right to seek recognition for the massive investment of time, skill, and energy into the creative project I've made. Seriously, if I poured hours into reading a fic, editing it, making a cover, going through all the steps to get it uploaded and archived and posted, and then you pulled your permission for some reason like "controlling your words" you'd be believe I'd be adding your name to a list. I'd CREATE a list if I had to. And if you've actually pulled that trick on someone already, all I can say is wow.

Seriously, as an author, "controlling your words" is a fallacy. You created them, yes, and up until the moment that you put them out into the world they were yours--but you did put them out there, and there's only so much you can do now. You can take the post down, you can edit it, you can lock it or crosspost it or change all the fonts purple. You can't control how people will react to it. You can't control how people will create their own art by transforming a work that you created. And seriously, they aren't making "further art" out of "your work". Podficcers are making an artwork of their own, transforming something that you also transformed from a source into something new and different. If that isn't okay for you, at all times, under all circumstances, then wouldn't you actually PREFER to only be contacted by podficcers who know the score and won't ask for something you can't give?

[arwen_lune]

I'd like to know that by asking you, I'm taking a risk.

But isn't the risk that you'll be told 'no'? Because you always run that risk unless you only pick work from people with blanket permissions

I would also question that your right to change your mind and withdraw permission from podfic you've already said yes to

That is not what I read in starrylizard's post - she only talks about changing her mind in the sense of telling somebody no, then later changing her mind and telling somebody else yes.

[starrylizard]

Thank you, yes. That was what I meant.

[starrylizard]

Hi shinetheway. Sorry if I've upset you somehow, I am rather tired as I said and I think perhaps some of what I said has been misunderstood.

I do have an open podfic policy, meaning anyone can podfic my works at any time without permission. I put that in there to show my own stance, however I understand why many podficcers may not choose to take this stance and I was trying to state how this list may make one (any writer) feel. A list of anti-podfic authors is useful. It may well stop podficcers accidentally badgering someone who is absolutely, positively not interested.

I should probably say in the interest of disclosure, I also podfic. I just keep the accounts very separate, though the link is pretty clear if you go looking. I've been knocked back for permission in a number of ways from a simple "no" to someone asking more and then politely declining, to someone telling me how they dislike podfic or even hate podfic. I simply move on, after all I don't start recording until I hear from the author.

I would also question that your right to change your mind and withdraw permission from podfic you've already said yes to
As Arwen_lune correctly indicated, I was trying to describe a scenario in which an author may say "no", then later change her mind and, when asked again at a later date, say "yes" to a different podficcer. For a fairly benign example, an author may say no because they don't understand what podfic is, feel intimidated, are unsure about "sharing" their work (yes it's on the web, etc; let's ignore that for the moment as it is not a debate I want to get into). I was very confused by podfic when I first came across it and I assume many people are also unsure and confused. A lot of podficcers do not explain what they are asking for (e.g. Can I podfic your story?), so authors may find it easier to just say no rather than spend time finding out about the medium. Anyway... whatever the reason, later the author may decide they quite like this podfic thing (or that they at least don't mind the idea of podfic) and have a change of heart. But, if in the meantime they have landed on this list, they may never be asked for permission to podfic again. It's one really benign example, I know, but does that make more sense?

I'm not knocking anyone, just pointing out (in my less than eloquent way) that there is a chance the list may actually alienate authors, rather than really helping podficcers.

[shinetheway]

Hi! No, you didn't upset me, and I thought you phrased your post beautifully, tired or not--I just thought you were eloquently arguing FOR exactly what it turns out that you're AGAINST. :) Which just goes to show how strong your argument was. So for every time you used the first person and I used the second person in response, let's just make it about the third person? Because I think we're in agreement on many things, just arguing different perspectives on it.

I understand what you mean about not wanting to blacklist authors or have someone's reputation turn a single uninformed decision made weeks/months/years ago, a single event becoming a permanent weight around someone's neck. Having been a newbie author, I definitely didn't know podfic from a hole in the ground getting started--I'm not even sure I'd ever HEARD podfic until maybe four or five years ago--and I don't know what I would have said if someone had asked to podfic me back when I was really getting started.

That said, so far that isn't what I've seen being posted on this list, and I honestly have faith that most fans aren't going to name someone to this list unless they've been well and truly burned in some way and genuinely want to prevent someone else from having that experience. Cesca seems to mostly have an attitude towards podfic as more "audiobooks" separate from independant artistic transformation which might or might not bother people, and maya is apparently trying to scrub the net clean of her fic which is...well, probably not gonna happen but I respect her right to try, but everyone else listed seems rather hardcore and there is a decent chance a newbie podficcer might in all innocence ask a question and get an answer back like this gem. And the thing that started this off was someone demanding a sample to audition from a podficcer seeking permission, and then rejecting the sample once she'd heard it. Which, no. Ugh.

I don't think that a list like this is inherently abusive, although like any list it's all about how it's handled. I think the mods have done a good job at explaining the very delicate nuance of what they're trying to convey, not so much a DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON alert for the listed people so much as...an allergy notice on the ingredients list. [grins] Delicious, delicious Snickers goodness! (May contain nuts.) (lol) They aren't trying to warn anyone off anyone except the blanket-no people, they're just trying to make sure that everyone has access to the full suite of information available to the community to make a good faith decision.

Finally, I'm sorry that I misunderstood what you wrote about permission. I thought that you changing permission referred to the last bit, after you talked about entering into discussions with a pod artist, so I assumed you meant revoking permission once a podfic was underway. I can see where you were going with it, and I actually agree with that line of argument that a person shouldn't be penalized for making one good-faith decision that contradicts another good-faith decision made weeks/months/years prior. I guess I'm tired too, if I missed that. It's getting near midnight here and I should know better than to post when I'm yawning. :)

[starrylizard]

I still feel rather uncomfortable, though I can see what the list is meant to be and I realise there are altruistic motives behind it. I'm uncomfortable at the possibility for abuse and the highly subjective nature of what could be considered a bad response. I see this morning that there has already been quite a bit of discussion on the DW version of this post, so I'll leave it be though. I should probably say that the post above yours mine was the one that got me thinking, but maybe the mods won't list that individual based on that post?

As an aside, the post you linked me to... it's angry, but fair enough. Why pod something if you don't hear back from the author with a yes? If she went back on an earlier permission she'd given, that'd be different, but the author doesn't even swear in that post. Anyway, I don't want to know the back story, even if I take it that post started this list. That author should be on a "NO PODFIC" list. That already exists though. This is a very different list to that.

I'll whisper "caution" and glide into the night like a ninja.

(Sorry for edits: Still asleep this morning apparently. O_o)

[arwen_lune]

Yeah, I get that that's not an awesome reaction to get from an author, but to my eyes it's firm, and irritated with people who have ignored her. Not angry or abusive.

[starrylizard]

And it also looks like it could have easily been avoided.

[nikojen]

Yep, this.

I find it kinda ironic that we've got cesperanza on the list for archiving people's work without permission, but then at least two of the others are clearly speaking from a place of having been burned by someone recording their work (and thus archiving it) without explicit permission, but they get put on the "hostile" list instead of just logging them as "blanket no" and moving on.

I'm sure most of these authors have little enough regard for the podfic community that being put on some list isn't going to cause any sleepless nights, and I know it's increasingly the "official" stance that author's don't have a right to feel violated if someone records them without permission, but but I don't feel comfortable with it at all.

[starrylizard]

uh huh.

[shinetheway]

Okay, fine, you make a very good point. And I agree that we can debate people who deserve to be on the list and don't deserve to be on the list. We can say that the person who rants about people posting without her permission but then it turns out that when people ask for her permission she ignores them--so does she care? does she not care? if she cared she'd just say "no", right?--we can say she deserves to be on a list but this other author doesn't. That's fine.

The reason it's fine is because this is a list on a LJ community post, and therefore neither carved into granite not branded onto the forehead of every affected person. People can go on the list. People can come off the list. Anyone on the blanket-yes list can with a single email get them removed from blanket-yes and put onto blanket-no. (And vice versa, for that matter.) Anyone who's on this list as being potentially troublesome to deal with can, if they so choose, change whatever policy or approach is causing them to be treated so cautiously. Cesca can in a single instant remove herself from this list by not archiving people anymore. Done!

Back in the day, fen created lists of authors who refused to put warnings on their fic. It wasn't done to punish, it wasn't done to shame, it was done to provide some sort of warning when the then-culture of authorial discretion didn't yet require them--a "readers beware, here be (potential) dragons" that made sure a reader who wanted warnings knew who to avoid in the event that a writer hadn't made her anti-warning stance clear.

I haven't seen one of those lists for years, because the culture has changed so much that they aren't really needed anymore. God knows I don't remember who was on them, although I certainly cared at the time. This is a long game we're playing here, and the baby steps we take towards respect and civility (fully respecting an author's right to be Not Okay with podfic, and NOT respecting an author's right to be a jackass about it) will have payoffs in the long run. I'm willing to have a list that makes a few people uncomfortable now, in the hope that we'll have a future community where such a list is completely unnecessary.

[shinetheway]

I have no particular horse in this race (I have blanket permission to podfic etc. and no regrets, but I also don't process audio fiction very well in general, so I don't listen to it, either), but I just want to point out that there's been a lot of discussion of how anxiety-inducing asking authors for permission is for podficcers--which is valid--but I definitely know authors who are deeply uncomfortable with podfic who find saying "thanks but no thanks, I'm not comfortable with that" equally anxiety-inducing. And it's true they could have a blanket no policy (although I've found I still get asked permission for translations and occasionally podfic despite having a blanket yes policy), but regardless, I think "anxiety" is often a reason authors might not respond to requests.

The question of how much anyone in fandom is entitled to have their anxiety triggers carefully worked around by everyone else, especially when people's anxieties come into conflict is a question everyone's going to have a different answer to. But podficcers aren't the only fans who are anxious, and saying 'no' can be just as hard as asking for permission.