Despite what he says, I think Crowley was in control of everything that happened the entire episode, and everything that happened was to Crowley's benefit.
This is such an interesting take on the ep -- I had a vague sort of thought leaning towards that but couldn't works it out, quite. Crowley knew what he was doing, every step.
I think you're right about Sam and Dean being in over their heads when it's multiple fronts. I haven't been feeling like they look weak or stupid. They're used to one kind of warfare, spent decades doing that, and they've been thrust into another.
BTW -- I've seen Dean's agreement to work with Crowley called equivalent to Sam's collaboration with Ruby, and I very much disagree with this assessment. But that would take another post to explore fully. In short: one episode does not an entire season make. Also there's no deception involved between Sam and Dean in this instance, only disagreement -- thank you. I think emotionally, Sam and Dean were caught on a Ruby parallel, and I totally understand why *Sam*
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I haven't been feeling like they look weak or stupid. They're used to one kind of warfare, spent decades doing that, and they've been thrust into another.
Yep! And i think this is simply good characterization to show the struggles they've had in adjusting, and to show their failures. When it comes to individual horsemen, isolated threats like the zombies or the Whore of Babylon, they've done fairly well (though not without difficulty or casulties) but when it comes to the wider picture, to Lucifer and the angels, they struggle. They're out of their depths.
I think emotionally, Sam and Dean were caught on a Ruby parallel, and I totally understand why *Sam* made one and why he was hurt by Dean's decision but that doesn't mean it is *actually* parallel.Yeah, me too. I think Sam especially was reacting emotionally to Crowley bringing up issues around Ruby, and I do understand why, even as I don't think they're the same situation at all. I could probably go on and on about this, because I liked how it played out in the episode. But to me
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But Crowley is a demon and Lucifer is an archangel? So I'm not sure how that proves anything. Though I do suspect Crowley may have known the Colt wouldn't work on Lucifer. Maybe I'm not understanding your comment.
I like this theory. You're right, the fact that the Colt doesn't work on Lucifer should have nothing to do with whether it could kill Crowley, a mere demon. Yet he was sure enough to let Bobby shoot him. Unless he just recently found out exactly what the Colt can and cannot kill, he would have no reason to think it was capable of killing someone much more powerful (assuming Lucifer is, which would be quite the twist) when he gave it to the boys. And then there's the knife, which he did make a big show of backing away from...
And I haven't seen this commented on anywhere, but doesn't that mean that Crowley is one of the Five Things that can't be killed by the Colt? If so, it seems like he just received a pretty significant upgrade.
I know your post is apocalypse specific, but my problem is that Dean and Sam have been dumbed down since way back in season two. They have increasingly been shown to be unable to research or finish a job without assistance. Characters are introduced with the purpose of playing them for fools, especially Dean.
Are we supposed to just overlook all of this incompetence because Dean says he's scary? Because Sam has on his frowny!face? I'm sorry. I need more than that. Kripke & Co. didn't deliver, IMO. They did too good of a job destroying these characters and didn't spend enough time putting them back together.
(BTW, I can't wait to see your meta r/e sidenote! I've been thinking on that, too!)
They've also been under ever-increasing amounts of stress since season two. Dean's deal, then preventing the apocalypse, then stopping the apocalypse. Yeah, they're not playing their A game, but who could be? And their B game is still pretty good.
Your meta pointed out some things I hadn't seen about this episode, e.g., Crowley consistently throwing Sam and Dean off-balance, and highlighted one of the things I suspected, that Crowley has some other long-term purpose working here, beyond just containing Lucifer. I also agree with you that Dean and Sam are ill-suited in training and perhaps temperament to fighting a war as opposed to a battle. At least two times in the series, various characters have remarked that certain situations were a test of how well Sam and Dean would do in a war. Although I can't really pin it down, I think Ruby might have said that in Jus in Bello and I also vaguely recall an angel saying that in a different episode. In Jus in Bello, they won the battle but an argument could be made that they lost the war. In that case, it went back to temperament, particularly Dean's unwillingness to sacrifice an individual for something to save the many.
I believe the second scene you're referring to is in 4.07 It's the Great Pumpkin Sam Winchester, when the issue was whether to sacrifice an entire town to stop a seal from breaking.
Castiel: Our orders were not to stop the summoning of Samhain. They were to do whatever you told us to do. Dean Winchester: Your orders were to follow my orders? Castiel: It was a test to see how you would perform under battlefield conditions, you might say.
Which is a lovely parallel, and a nice way of showing how the stakes are being upped as time goes on. The question now being to bring about the Apocalypse, and sacrificing a huge chunk of the population vs. a chance of hell on earth for everyone.
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I have to agree that Crowley did nothing by chance, everything was a part of a bigger plan he is hatching.
I have felt that the boys are in over their heads and I still don't have any idea how they will solve their "little" apocalyptic problem!
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Just like the Winchesters, I was a little unbalanced by the end of the eps. With just 2 more to go, I am fearful of what is in store for the boys.
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This is such an interesting take on the ep -- I had a vague sort of thought leaning towards that but couldn't works it out, quite. Crowley knew what he was doing, every step.
I think you're right about Sam and Dean being in over their heads when it's multiple fronts. I haven't been feeling like they look weak or stupid. They're used to one kind of warfare, spent decades doing that, and they've been thrust into another.
BTW -- I've seen Dean's agreement to work with Crowley called equivalent to Sam's collaboration with Ruby, and I very much disagree with this assessment. But that would take another post to explore fully. In short: one episode does not an entire season make. Also there's no deception involved between Sam and Dean in this instance, only disagreement -- thank you. I think emotionally, Sam and Dean were caught on a Ruby parallel, and I totally understand why *Sam* ( ... )
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Yep! And i think this is simply good characterization to show the struggles they've had in adjusting, and to show their failures. When it comes to individual horsemen, isolated threats like the zombies or the Whore of Babylon, they've done fairly well (though not without difficulty or casulties) but when it comes to the wider picture, to Lucifer and the angels, they struggle. They're out of their depths.
I think emotionally, Sam and Dean were caught on a Ruby parallel, and I totally understand why *Sam* made one and why he was hurt by Dean's decision but that doesn't mean it is *actually* parallel.Yeah, me too. I think Sam especially was reacting emotionally to Crowley bringing up issues around Ruby, and I do understand why, even as I don't think they're the same situation at all. I could probably go on and on about this, because I liked how it played out in the episode. But to me ( ... )
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And I haven't seen this commented on anywhere, but doesn't that mean that Crowley is one of the Five Things that can't be killed by the Colt? If so, it seems like he just received a pretty significant upgrade.
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Are we supposed to just overlook all of this incompetence because Dean says he's scary? Because Sam has on his frowny!face? I'm sorry. I need more than that. Kripke & Co. didn't deliver, IMO. They did too good of a job destroying these characters and didn't spend enough time putting them back together.
(BTW, I can't wait to see your meta r/e sidenote! I've been thinking on that, too!)
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Castiel: Our orders were not to stop the summoning of Samhain. They were to do whatever you told us to do.
Dean Winchester: Your orders were to follow my orders?
Castiel: It was a test to see how you would perform under battlefield conditions, you might say.
Which is a lovely parallel, and a nice way of showing how the stakes are being upped as time goes on. The question now being to bring about the Apocalypse, and sacrificing a huge chunk of the population vs. a chance of hell on earth for everyone.
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I think the example you might be thinking of is Castiel's comments to Dean in the park in "Great Pumpkin."
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