Lovely post, especially wrt the 'blunt instrument'. It was definitely what Dean was thinking, wasn't it?
I don't want to be a downer as well. But there are a few things in this episode that are not adding up to my more positive interpretation of the final scene between Dean and Sam. I want it to be the huge step forward that I wants it to be, and I guess it is for Sam (giving his trust to Dean without wanting anything back) but the role breaking I was expecting didn't really happen - even Dean says something about it being always the same damn thing (or something to that effect). The factt is that the issues of Dean were not about Dean recognizing that he's treating Sam as a kid - sure it's part of Sam's issues with Dean - but how much do Dean's issues are resolved if, in the end, it's by being a big brother that Dean gets back into the fight?
I don't know, I'm confused and afraid, and it was deciphering part of the letter that really brought this to light.
eta: Or maybe SPN has illuded me one too many times and now I can't
( ... )
I think Sam made some huge steps forward in the last couple eps, he's done a ton of growing. I should have mentioned that part but I was wrapped up in the Dean aspect.
Dean, though... I don't think he has. I was on the fence about that last scene for a couple of days, until I rewatched with the sound off. Without Dean's words, without Sam's words, without the YAY HEROES music at the end? I think JA is a good actor, and so... I tend to see the conflict between how he's portraying Dean's body language and what' Dean's saying as meaningful there.
I think the resolving issues between sam and dean is the fact that dean should lean on sam more, to realize that he isn't doing things alone. Because the truth is Sam did grow up,he isn't that snot-nosed kid that dean had to look out for. Circumstances happened and therefore their relationship dynamic has changed. The truth is no relationship stays the same for ever it is, and should, constantly change, maybe not enough to notice but enough to change. True, maybe dean doesn't truly believe what he said to sam at the end of the recent episode, but at least he acknowledge the truth of the situation. Maybe they will be back to being brothers, but it will probably take a while.
sorry if i don't make much sense, usually it takes me a while to realize that i have very bad grammar. So if you understand what I mean then kudos to you.
So let me try to rephrase it.
Their relationship isn't the same as pre-series or even season 1 or 2. It changed, because circumstances made it change. What dean had to learn is that Sam can grow up, and did. That sam doesn't need what dean was giving before, same as dean needs something different from sam (like sam having faith in dean even when dean has no faith in himself and being able to lean on sam more).And even though dean might not have truly meant what he said to sam at the end of the current episode he at least began the starting process of change.
Great meta, and you're not pessimistic, just honest. I think Dean isn't 100% back, and you may be right that he is tossing ideas out to Sam, telling him what he needs to hear, but not meaning them with his heart. that's what his body language told me too. Sam, well he's just happy to have rescued Dean for the moment.
thanks! I'm not so sure he was consciously lying to Sam so much as snapped back into Big Brother mode even as he was apologizing for it. His entire reason for not saying Yes was because Sam was looking up to his Big Brother... so yeah. He couldn't fill the one role (Michael's sword) because it conflicted with his older role (Sam's Big Brother). I just can't see that as a genuine turn around in Dean's psyche.
Interesting thoughts on the blunt instrument. It makes sense to me.
Because one extreme form of that kind of masculinity, I think, is the ability to kill without conscience. We call those folks heroes, sometimes.One form, yes. I know you and I have very different takes on SPN's treatment of heroism, but on SPN, I feel that Sam and Dean have been developed as heroes who CAN'T do it without conscience. And there are a great number of heroes in pop culture who refuse to kill, or who struggle with killing. So I think it's more what kind of hero does Dean want to be and what kind does he fear becoming. So he fears becoming the blunt instrument, of being that kind of hero who mows down enemies and kills without a blink -- see his "the things I'm willing to do for you and Dad, it scares me sometimes" in Devil's Trap. But the show has also thoroughly established conflicted heroes who do ruthless things but can't do it coldly and without remorse and without psychological damage, and heroes who don't want to go there
( ... )
But the show has also thoroughly established conflicted heroes who do ruthless things but can't do it coldly and without remorse and without psychological damage, and heroes who don't want to go there.
Like I said, it is one form of "heroism" that involves killing without conscience. Of course there are many other forms that are the opposite of this. And that was my point: what dean fears is being this killer without conscience, that's what he's referring to by saying he's finally giving in to what he's supposed to be. What he fears he is. Same with Sam's "destiny" being what Sam fears he is - a monster. That appears to be the role of "destiny" to both Sam and Dean at this point - turning into something they have been fighting desperately not to be.
What I've noticed S4-S5 is SPN will bring Sam and Dean to these insights and resolutions, but they're only one step or one thread of the problems, and there's more hurt and more to be resolved. Yes, totally. I agree with this, which is why I think that part of his speech about Sam was
( ... )
I think now I'd go with Dean meant it and genuinely has gained that insight, but isn't all the way there all on his own yet. He is saying it for Sam, and simultaneously he means it. So maybe that's where the tiredness (and I agree that if JA is doing something with his face, it is probably a clue to decoding Dean) comes in, but why that scene left me with no unsettled feeling or thinking Dean was whistling past the graveyard yet again.
Goddamnit, I didn't hit post! Stupid computer ...keerawaApril 19 2010, 01:27:36 UTC
Oooof. Dean as weapon, yeah. I definitely see that.
I see the ending as hopeful compared to the BLACK DEPTHS OF DESPAIR Dean's been in recently. Dean's still exhausted. But now he's keeping going. Not because he thinks they can win. Not because it's even necessarily the right thing to do. But because Sammy's depending on him, and Dean can't let him down. And even if that's a part of the whole dysfunctional Big Brother/Parent thing, it's still a core part of Dean's identity, something he feels he can be proud of about himself. So ... better than nothing?
Re: Goddamnit, I didn't hit post! Stupid computer ...amonitrateApril 19 2010, 01:41:13 UTC
It was better than the BLACK DEPTHS OF DESPAIR for sure.
But because Sammy's depending on him, and Dean can't let him down. And even if that's a part of the whole dysfunctional Big Brother/Parent thing, it's still a core part of Dean's identity, something he feels he can be proud of about himself. So ... better than nothing? But the problem lies in the very dysfunction of this role. I don't see it as so much something he can be proud of about himself as a role he's inhabiting out of fear. And filling this role landed Dean in hell
( ... )
Because those roles are not the truth. The truth is Sam and Dean and everyone else aren't actors, they're people, and squeezing them into these restrictive roles is destroying the world.
Man, I never put the Green Room thing together with the play your roles until you mentioned it. It makes Changing Channels just a touch more brilliant before.
Because one extreme form of that kind of masculinity, I think, is the ability to kill without conscience. We call those folks heroes, sometimes.(did I mention how awesome this was? because it is.) Which is what I loved so much about 1x21, actually, how Dean was horrified about how guilty he doesn't feel. The view that builds up the more we see of their childhoods is just heartbreaking. Like you said, Dean shares a lot of characteristics with child soldiers, and how he feels the experience -- being a part of it, even unwillingly -- has changed him irrevocably. The earlier seasons made "freak" a word that Dean shies away from with his whole body (and the set up of Sam's unasked for powers even
( ... )
In which I spout off with very little solid basisdeiseachApril 20 2010, 22:37:41 UTC
I'm only half-way through season two so far, but the thing that leaps out at me is that Dean seems to have no sense of self.
If he's not Daddy's Little Soldier (and I'm wincing at that description even while I acknowledge its accuracy) or Sam's Big Brother or even Dean Winchester, Hunter, who is he?
Sam at least had an idea of who he was or wanted to be when he headed off to college and then Stanford for a law degree. Dean - does anyone recollect any mention of him ever saying "If Mom hadn't died, I'd have liked to be ---------"?
So I think that ties in with the whole "sword of Michael" thing you're talking about; all Dean has to keep him from saying "Yes" is the shreds of "Sam's Big Brother" and those threads are fraying fast.
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I don't want to be a downer as well. But there are a few things in this episode that are not adding up to my more positive interpretation of the final scene between Dean and Sam. I want it to be the huge step forward that I wants it to be, and I guess it is for Sam (giving his trust to Dean without wanting anything back) but the role breaking I was expecting didn't really happen - even Dean says something about it being always the same damn thing (or something to that effect). The factt is that the issues of Dean were not about Dean recognizing that he's treating Sam as a kid - sure it's part of Sam's issues with Dean - but how much do Dean's issues are resolved if, in the end, it's by being a big brother that Dean gets back into the fight?
I don't know, I'm confused and afraid, and it was deciphering part of the letter that really brought this to light.
eta: Or maybe SPN has illuded me one too many times and now I can't ( ... )
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Dean, though... I don't think he has. I was on the fence about that last scene for a couple of days, until I rewatched with the sound off. Without Dean's words, without Sam's words, without the YAY HEROES music at the end? I think JA is a good actor, and so... I tend to see the conflict between how he's portraying Dean's body language and what' Dean's saying as meaningful there.
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So let me try to rephrase it.
Their relationship isn't the same as pre-series or even season 1 or 2. It changed, because circumstances made it change. What dean had to learn is that Sam can grow up, and did. That sam doesn't need what dean was giving before, same as dean needs something different from sam (like sam having faith in dean even when dean has no faith in himself and being able to lean on sam more).And even though dean might not have truly meant what he said to sam at the end of the current episode he at least began the starting process of change.
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Because one extreme form of that kind of masculinity, I think, is the ability to kill without conscience. We call those folks heroes, sometimes.One form, yes. I know you and I have very different takes on SPN's treatment of heroism, but on SPN, I feel that Sam and Dean have been developed as heroes who CAN'T do it without conscience. And there are a great number of heroes in pop culture who refuse to kill, or who struggle with killing. So I think it's more what kind of hero does Dean want to be and what kind does he fear becoming. So he fears becoming the blunt instrument, of being that kind of hero who mows down enemies and kills without a blink -- see his "the things I'm willing to do for you and Dad, it scares me sometimes" in Devil's Trap. But the show has also thoroughly established conflicted heroes who do ruthless things but can't do it coldly and without remorse and without psychological damage, and heroes who don't want to go there ( ... )
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Like I said, it is one form of "heroism" that involves killing without conscience. Of course there are many other forms that are the opposite of this. And that was my point: what dean fears is being this killer without conscience, that's what he's referring to by saying he's finally giving in to what he's supposed to be. What he fears he is. Same with Sam's "destiny" being what Sam fears he is - a monster. That appears to be the role of "destiny" to both Sam and Dean at this point - turning into something they have been fighting desperately not to be.
What I've noticed S4-S5 is SPN will bring Sam and Dean to these insights and resolutions, but they're only one step or one thread of the problems, and there's more hurt and more to be resolved. Yes, totally. I agree with this, which is why I think that part of his speech about Sam was ( ... )
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I see the ending as hopeful compared to the BLACK DEPTHS OF DESPAIR Dean's been in recently. Dean's still exhausted. But now he's keeping going. Not because he thinks they can win. Not because it's even necessarily the right thing to do. But because Sammy's depending on him, and Dean can't let him down. And even if that's a part of the whole dysfunctional Big Brother/Parent thing, it's still a core part of Dean's identity, something he feels he can be proud of about himself. So ... better than nothing?
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But because Sammy's depending on him, and Dean can't let him down. And even if that's a part of the whole dysfunctional Big Brother/Parent thing, it's still a core part of Dean's identity, something he feels he can be proud of about himself. So ... better than nothing? But the problem lies in the very dysfunction of this role. I don't see it as so much something he can be proud of about himself as a role he's inhabiting out of fear. And filling this role landed Dean in hell ( ... )
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Man, I never put the Green Room thing together with the play your roles until you mentioned it. It makes Changing Channels just a touch more brilliant before.
Because one extreme form of that kind of masculinity, I think, is the ability to kill without conscience. We call those folks heroes, sometimes.(did I mention how awesome this was? because it is.) Which is what I loved so much about 1x21, actually, how Dean was horrified about how guilty he doesn't feel. The view that builds up the more we see of their childhoods is just heartbreaking. Like you said, Dean shares a lot of characteristics with child soldiers, and how he feels the experience -- being a part of it, even unwillingly -- has changed him irrevocably. The earlier seasons made "freak" a word that Dean shies away from with his whole body (and the set up of Sam's unasked for powers even ( ... )
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Yeah, they both are afraid they're monsters; Dean just fears he's the human variety.
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If he's not Daddy's Little Soldier (and I'm wincing at that description even while I acknowledge its accuracy) or Sam's Big Brother or even Dean Winchester, Hunter, who is he?
Sam at least had an idea of who he was or wanted to be when he headed off to college and then Stanford for a law degree. Dean - does anyone recollect any mention of him ever saying "If Mom hadn't died, I'd have liked to be ---------"?
So I think that ties in with the whole "sword of Michael" thing you're talking about; all Dean has to keep him from saying "Yes" is the shreds of "Sam's Big Brother" and those threads are fraying fast.
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Yeah, completely. I wrote a bunch about this in a couple of recent meta essays that are entirely tl;dr.
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