Angels, free will, and consent

[amonitrate]

[note: apparently nothing hasn't already been discussed somewhere in this fandom, which can be both wonderful and frustrating to a newbie. So these points are probably not new to vets, but they're new to me. Links to other discussions of the topic would be much appreciated.]

Comments

[smilla02]

I don't think that the angels have a definition of consent similar to what we would call informed. It seems that all they care about is that the vessels will say yes - it's nominal and it doesn't matter what they have to do to make it happen.

I'm trying to remember how Lucifer convinced Nick - the exact words - but I'm pretty sure he edited the truth in a way that objectively made it a lie.

I'm wondering--- the angels talk of consent with the same nonchalance they talk of Destiny. Michael defined Destiny according to Heaven as the cumulative effect of thousands random choices that will in any case bring someone exactly where God said they would. And yet, there's nothing random in their version of Destiny as we know that they have manipulated those choices over and over - the most staggering discovery was the one regarding Mary and John for me: it hit me on a deep emotional level.

[amonitrate]

yes, exactly; but the angels also give lip service to the fact that humans, at least, have free will.

but the angels don't actually respect that free will, because to them it doesn't really exist. So yeah, consent doesn't meaningfully exist to them; though I guess my point is the upper level angels certainly possess the agency to form their own plans without GOd around, so in some manner they do have a sense of free will, they just don't call it that. They try to pass it off as destiny, even as they are "the agents of destiny" which is convenient for them. Especially given they don't have God's approval of their plans.

I don't think that the angels have a definition of consent similar to what we would call informed. It seems that all they care about is that the vessels will say yes - it's nominal and it doesn't matter what they have to do to make it happen.

True -- and I think the show has been pretty explicit in saying this makes them dicks. heh.

[smilla02]

Oh, well, Dean's usually very good at identifying dicks at first sight. :D

But, yes. I think it makes them very dangerous, and way more dangerous than demons - which makes sense in the world of SPN given that demons are corrupted human souls. Becasue if they know they can make choices then they must know they have free will even if they don't call it like that. But they have an immense power at their disposal.

ALl their actions this season tell me that they don't believe in Destiny or are afraid that Destiny isn't going to play out like they think it will. I think they're scared, yes. Zacariah's face when Castiel hinted that God had saved him was revealing.

[amonitrate]

oh yes, for sure: their insistence that everything is destined kind of strikes me as THOU DOST PROTEST TOO MUCH. If you know what I mean.

[blubird_pie]

Your point about Anna possessing herself is fascinating to me, partially because it sort of lends itself to a feminist reading and partially because of what it implies about other angelic possessions. The fact that Anna (or whoever she got the favor from) could create an empty vessel and didn't need to possess a body with a soul makes it really curious that Michael and Lucifer claim that they do need an actual person. I mean, if they can reconstitute a dead Sammy, why do they need the actual Sammy present and consenting at all? Couldn't they just create an empty genetic replica, considering Gary could consent just as well as Sam so long as he had the right meat? Plot hole or deeply significant point?!

It's also really interesting how you point out here that even angels actually DO have choice (free will). They don't believe they have choice, though interestingly angels in positions of power are more able to recognize and exercise their power of choice while encouraging the false believe that there IS no choice as a way of

[shopstewardess]

Hello, there. I've clicked on too many links to remember exactly how I got to your journal, but we do intersect at spn_heavymeta

[amonitrate]

If God wanted to give the angels free will in the same way that he gave humans free will, he could only do this by appearing to disappear.

Nice point, I hadn't thought about that.

[shopstewardess]

Thank you. And having now read further, I see that you've addressed the destiny/free will issue, and don't want you to think I was including you in the "not completely coherent" comment - which itself wasn't intended as a criticism, just a feeling that no-one's got completely to the bottom of the issue yet. (Which may not be possible, of course.) I sometimes should cogitate more before typing.