Feminism Links: Women in Fandom, Discourse, Female Characters
Edited: surrealis wrote a lovely essay on "Feminism and Gender in Fannish Discourse" which I neglected to realize was flocked. It has excellent discussion of how women frame things in online--particularly LJ--discussions in fannish meta. Part of the discussion is about whether this difference should/could be seen as something other than internalized sexism, which I find very interesting. /edit
Here is an excellent blog. Feminism 101. Everything you need to get started in your study of feminism.
And from that blog: What is internalized sexism? One of the best and briefest explanations of internalized sexism. Really, it's a link I keep handy, just in case. Because it's something very much ignored in fandom sometimes. Every single one of us is affected by internalized sexism. I've had people tell me "Oh, I wasn't raised that way, so I guess I'm lucky." Um, no. You WERE raised that way. Your parents might have been awesome, but it's way more insidious than that. You watched TV and you went out of the house, yes? So, you're not free of it. And by the way, I read your journal. You ARE affected.
And you need to kind of know what this is in order to get what I'm saying here:
Let me say right off the bat, that I employ nearly every method of discussion I mention below. I have the same reactions to tone and statements and emoticons and question marks as everybody else.
I've been kind of thinking this week about LJ and the culture and the way it's so skewed toward women. And the way we all meta. (have deep discussions about life and fandom) And especially the way that most of us have discussions in which we attempt to post our point-of-view in a way that is seen as non-confrontational. We pepper our words with emoticons or we use jokes, or, the newest thing, we phrase statements as questions in order to indicate uncertainty. All to make sure we capture the right 'tone'. Which is... to make sure we don't come off as if we have one. There are certainly tone arguments in racism and feminism and classism and such that are a bird of another feather and deal with derailing a conversation. But I don't think this is that. (To be fair, the question mark thing DOES indicate uncertainty well.)
This is, I think, something else. When i was in a mostly male fandom, the discussions were not like they are here. Or rarely. Opinions were stated, countered and argued with polite efficiency. No name-calling, but no emoticons or uncertainty. I DO see that in LJ amongst journalers I know to be women, but not a lot. I tend to see more discussions where women start off every single sentence with "I'm sorry, but this is how I feel". "I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true." "I'm sorry, but..."
Literally, there are women who go around life apologizing for having an opinion. In some extreme cases in real life, I'd say there are women who go around apologizing to the world for their very existence. *weeps*
(I have curtailed myself with the 'I'm sorry' thing, but only through great effort, and that in itself was an amazing experiment. You have no idea how difficult it was to refrain from using that phrase. I even tried to question myself on WHY I felt such a strong need to use it in whatever particular circumstance I was in, and I couldn't really come up with anything concrete. I certainly wasn't sorry for having an opinion that countered someone else's, but that seemed to be the only reason I could come up with.)
Is it internalized sexism that leads us to believe that when women MUST express an opinion they must do so in a 'nice' manner? (Yes.) I think we reinforce this by getting upset by those who express their opinion without all the extra padding. If someone simply states their opinion without softening the blow, is that really impolite? Or is it just an opinion? I've seen lots of people get snotty immediately at this. And thus, afraid to give the 'wrong opinion', people start using the emoticons and the question mark.
Or is it simply that we want our communities and our discussions to be nice? Do we need to be ultra-clear on our 'tone' since having a discussion online is not like real life? Our assumptions as to tone tend to be 'if you're not actively trying to show me that you're friendly then you are being unfriendly'. Is it wrong? Part of feminism is the acceptance of women and behavior in all forms, yes? I don't know.
One of my pet peeves is when I'm trying to have a serious discussion and someone will drop a fly-by comment in reply to mine in which they correct me or tell me I'm wrong and then use the action-indicator *runs away*. Indicating that they are telling me something they think is at least slightly upsetting, and then they are running away from me so I cannot hit them. Or something. Teasing, really. And in the context of a casual conversation, that's cool. But when it's serious meta, it angers me. And I've called two people out on this over the past few years, telling them that if they can make the comment they can surely stand and have the conversation instead of running away. They both came back and admitted that, yes, they should do that. And we had the conversation, and IN BOTH CASES, I admitted that they were right about the original complaint and I was wrong and I corrected myself. Aaaand then they both immediately defriended me. I'm assuming (and I don't think I'm off base here) because they then thought I was an ass for confronting them.
And I'm not sure, really, what I'm trying to posit as a goal here. I don't think women have to act like men in order to be taken seriously. On the other hand, it drives me crazy to see women apologizing for their opinions and not even realize they're doing it. And it stirs up an anger in me that we are so numbed by internalized sexism that even in a place where being a woman is NOT a penalty, we feel the need to keep ourselves in the 'correct place'.
Thoughts? I'm still working this out in my own head.
"Thoughts on Fiction and Gender: So, What About the Men?" by prozacpark, who, with examples, discusses the portrayal of men's sexism in media, how that sexism is so rarely depicted within the text as problematic, and why that is a PROBLEM with both the media source and the characters themselves, thus making it difficult for prozacpark (and me!) to bond with or be entirely fond of these male characters. The post also links to an analysis of Xander in B:TVS and the lack of consequences for his actions; I found the discussion interesting. The comparisons with how female characters are portrayed and how women are--as usual--condemed for the same mannerisms or behaviors that make men "heroic" are truly fascinating and well thought-through. SPOILERS in the essay (not the excerpt) for all of BSG, Buffy/Angel, SPN. References to others.
Every time there's a good discussion of the treatment of female characters in fiction or a mention of female deaths/refrigerations, there's always the inevitable derailment of the discussion with the very brilliant question of, "But what about the men? Do they don't die/get mistreated/etc, too?" So, I've been thinking: Indeed, what about the men? Are there problems with the way they're portrayed?
I wrote about the "Ten Best Wives on TV" list a while ago, and mentioned that the reason we don't get things like that with men and Ten Best Husbands on TV is because how good of a wife someone is is often a pretty good measure of how good of a character a woman is. Where good doesn't mean INTERESTING or COMPLELLING, but it does mean nice/a good person. As in, for (fictional) women to be considered good people (by the text? By fandom?), they often have to be good girlfriends/wives. But men can still be considered heroes and good people by the text and/or fandom while being horrible husbands/boyfriends. Fiction often happily overlooks men’s sexism and how a man treats women often has no bearing on how much the text/fandom likes him.
Being a good husband often has NO reflection on a male character's worthiness. Because it's a part of his characterization, not ALL of it. Whereas with women, once they're put into the context of a relationship (and become part of a man's narrative, in a way), they often completely lose their own narrative and are seen through the POV of the man's arc.
Internalized Sexism: What It is, How it Works by tekanji. Awesome discussion of what internalized sexism is, how it operates, and how women respond to other women negatively based in this internalized sexism.
Here is an excellent blog. Feminism 101. Everything you need to get started in your study of feminism.
And from that blog: What is internalized sexism? One of the best and briefest explanations of internalized sexism. Really, it's a link I keep handy, just in case. Because it's something very much ignored in fandom sometimes. Every single one of us is affected by internalized sexism. I've had people tell me "Oh, I wasn't raised that way, so I guess I'm lucky." Um, no. You WERE raised that way. Your parents might have been awesome, but it's way more insidious than that. You watched TV and you went out of the house, yes? So, you're not free of it. And by the way, I read your journal. You ARE affected.
And you need to kind of know what this is in order to get what I'm saying here:
Let me say right off the bat, that I employ nearly every method of discussion I mention below. I have the same reactions to tone and statements and emoticons and question marks as everybody else.
I've been kind of thinking this week about LJ and the culture and the way it's so skewed toward women. And the way we all meta. (have deep discussions about life and fandom) And especially the way that most of us have discussions in which we attempt to post our point-of-view in a way that is seen as non-confrontational. We pepper our words with emoticons or we use jokes, or, the newest thing, we phrase statements as questions in order to indicate uncertainty. All to make sure we capture the right 'tone'. Which is... to make sure we don't come off as if we have one. There are certainly tone arguments in racism and feminism and classism and such that are a bird of another feather and deal with derailing a conversation. But I don't think this is that. (To be fair, the question mark thing DOES indicate uncertainty well.)
This is, I think, something else. When i was in a mostly male fandom, the discussions were not like they are here. Or rarely. Opinions were stated, countered and argued with polite efficiency. No name-calling, but no emoticons or uncertainty. I DO see that in LJ amongst journalers I know to be women, but not a lot. I tend to see more discussions where women start off every single sentence with "I'm sorry, but this is how I feel". "I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true." "I'm sorry, but..."
Literally, there are women who go around life apologizing for having an opinion. In some extreme cases in real life, I'd say there are women who go around apologizing to the world for their very existence. *weeps*
(I have curtailed myself with the 'I'm sorry' thing, but only through great effort, and that in itself was an amazing experiment. You have no idea how difficult it was to refrain from using that phrase. I even tried to question myself on WHY I felt such a strong need to use it in whatever particular circumstance I was in, and I couldn't really come up with anything concrete. I certainly wasn't sorry for having an opinion that countered someone else's, but that seemed to be the only reason I could come up with.)
Is it internalized sexism that leads us to believe that when women MUST express an opinion they must do so in a 'nice' manner? (Yes.) I think we reinforce this by getting upset by those who express their opinion without all the extra padding. If someone simply states their opinion without softening the blow, is that really impolite? Or is it just an opinion? I've seen lots of people get snotty immediately at this. And thus, afraid to give the 'wrong opinion', people start using the emoticons and the question mark.
Or is it simply that we want our communities and our discussions to be nice? Do we need to be ultra-clear on our 'tone' since having a discussion online is not like real life? Our assumptions as to tone tend to be 'if you're not actively trying to show me that you're friendly then you are being unfriendly'. Is it wrong? Part of feminism is the acceptance of women and behavior in all forms, yes? I don't know.
One of my pet peeves is when I'm trying to have a serious discussion and someone will drop a fly-by comment in reply to mine in which they correct me or tell me I'm wrong and then use the action-indicator *runs away*. Indicating that they are telling me something they think is at least slightly upsetting, and then they are running away from me so I cannot hit them. Or something. Teasing, really. And in the context of a casual conversation, that's cool. But when it's serious meta, it angers me. And I've called two people out on this over the past few years, telling them that if they can make the comment they can surely stand and have the conversation instead of running away. They both came back and admitted that, yes, they should do that. And we had the conversation, and IN BOTH CASES, I admitted that they were right about the original complaint and I was wrong and I corrected myself. Aaaand then they both immediately defriended me. I'm assuming (and I don't think I'm off base here) because they then thought I was an ass for confronting them.
And I'm not sure, really, what I'm trying to posit as a goal here. I don't think women have to act like men in order to be taken seriously. On the other hand, it drives me crazy to see women apologizing for their opinions and not even realize they're doing it. And it stirs up an anger in me that we are so numbed by internalized sexism that even in a place where being a woman is NOT a penalty, we feel the need to keep ourselves in the 'correct place'.
Thoughts? I'm still working this out in my own head.
"Thoughts on Fiction and Gender: So, What About the Men?" by prozacpark, who, with examples, discusses the portrayal of men's sexism in media, how that sexism is so rarely depicted within the text as problematic, and why that is a PROBLEM with both the media source and the characters themselves, thus making it difficult for prozacpark (and me!) to bond with or be entirely fond of these male characters. The post also links to an analysis of Xander in B:TVS and the lack of consequences for his actions; I found the discussion interesting. The comparisons with how female characters are portrayed and how women are--as usual--condemed for the same mannerisms or behaviors that make men "heroic" are truly fascinating and well thought-through. SPOILERS in the essay (not the excerpt) for all of BSG, Buffy/Angel, SPN. References to others.
Every time there's a good discussion of the treatment of female characters in fiction or a mention of female deaths/refrigerations, there's always the inevitable derailment of the discussion with the very brilliant question of, "But what about the men? Do they don't die/get mistreated/etc, too?" So, I've been thinking: Indeed, what about the men? Are there problems with the way they're portrayed?
I wrote about the "Ten Best Wives on TV" list a while ago, and mentioned that the reason we don't get things like that with men and Ten Best Husbands on TV is because how good of a wife someone is is often a pretty good measure of how good of a character a woman is. Where good doesn't mean INTERESTING or COMPLELLING, but it does mean nice/a good person. As in, for (fictional) women to be considered good people (by the text? By fandom?), they often have to be good girlfriends/wives. But men can still be considered heroes and good people by the text and/or fandom while being horrible husbands/boyfriends. Fiction often happily overlooks men’s sexism and how a man treats women often has no bearing on how much the text/fandom likes him.
Being a good husband often has NO reflection on a male character's worthiness. Because it's a part of his characterization, not ALL of it. Whereas with women, once they're put into the context of a relationship (and become part of a man's narrative, in a way), they often completely lose their own narrative and are seen through the POV of the man's arc.
Internalized Sexism: What It is, How it Works by tekanji. Awesome discussion of what internalized sexism is, how it operates, and how women respond to other women negatively based in this internalized sexism.