Ramblings (rather pointless)
I fail at posting... I have a tendency to leave something half-written for a week before finally putting it up. So instead of talking about what I saw last week, my pointless ramblings are now on "The Shakespeare Code". And whatever that episode of Torchwood was called. I'm not that great with names.
( Was it SNL, with the 'Lowered Expectations' skit...? )
( Was it SNL, with the 'Lowered Expectations' skit...? )
I was glad that Rose left, too, for a complex set of reasons. I didn't like who she became with Ten. She had those tendencies with Nine, to be sure (her jealousy of Lynda and even of Jabe - look back, and she's already bristling, "Twigs off, missy, he's mine!" But she wasn't as sure of him, so she wasn't as smug. But then, she also challenged Nine (with the Gelth, with the Dalek), but she doesn't with Ten, and God knows he did enough to be challenged over (like, Why can't we visit Jack? Are you going to just leave me in Aberdeen? Why did you bop off with that French cow and leave us alone on a space ship to DIE?) And I have never wanted to pummel lead characters in a show nearly as bad as I wanted to with Rose and Ten in T&C with their stupid bet, when they left Mickey holding the button down in Rise of the Cybermen, and when they laughed at going someplace safe in The Impossible Planet - it's a totally different tone than the "Is there trouble?"/"Oh, yes." exchange in The Long Game. (I'll put at least part of that down to Christopher Eccleston being so much a better actor than David Tennant.) Rose did do some proactive things in S2, but she had to be separated from the Doctor to do them, and the clinginess was really unattractive - I don't understand the people who think they were happy and jolly during S2. I genuinely, honestly thought they were heading toward an emotional breakup because he didn't care as much anymore and she was in denial. The whole dynamic seemed so forced and unnatural, while Nine and Rose had been incredibly easy and natural (and carnal and innocent at the same time, which is some trick). I know Billie Piper is good friends with Tennant and all, but I hope she can get some perspective and look critically at her performances in S1 and S2. She'll see she was a much better actress in S1. Not just when she was with Eccleston, but especially when she was. It still feels fresh and exciting when I watch "Rose", but I watched a bit of The Idiot's Lantern recently, and it was so...plastic. It reminds me of the problem I always had with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, in that I was always aware that these were 20-somethings playing teenagers - not just the age gap, but that they were acting.
Ten is one of those characters (there's another one in another, much smaller fandom that I started in) where it's not so much that I mind his popularity, it's that his popularity says something unpleasant about people I'd rather think better of. And when people want to argue that he's just "broken" or "sad", all I can think of is that most of it in the last two series is of his own making. Nine was genuinely broken and yet his impulse is to go out and try to make connections, do things, even if he was a bit reckless and suicidal at the beginning; Ten just wants to be worshipped, and I get fed up with his endless (badly acted) emo.
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I'll put at least part of that down to Christopher Eccleston being so much a better actor-- That's why I'm worried about rewatching S1; I'd be looking at it to see what the essential difference was-- if there was one. Even since I saw that RTD claimed to have written both seasons the same, I started wondering if maybe Eccleston was the *only* reason that series was so good, if all the things I can't stand about the writing were really the same. If that were true, I don't think I'd take it very well.
Why did you bop off with that French cow and leave us alone on a space ship to DIE? *grins* I got a good fic out of that exact question... It's getting eerie. Once, there was a (generally badly done) challenge going around Teaspoon along the lines of Reinette coming on the TARDIS, treating Rose terribly, and the Doctor not noticing at all. Before I saw TCI, I thought that would be incredibly out-of-character for the Doctor. Ha-- half my author's notes on that fic were me trying to figure out a polite way to say, "Uh, now that I've seen Ten, I don't think I wrote him as enough of an asshole..."
not so much that I mind his popularity, it's that his popularity says something unpleasant about people I'd rather think better of-- Mmm, oh yes, I know what you mean. I shudder to think what the feminist analysis of fandom, this one in particular, would look like... And "broken"? Nine was. Ten wears it like a badge, pulls it out whenever he needs it, just like he's doing now with Rose. You can watch him put it on. Willing to risk anything, provided it's just his life. Emotions, attention, thought-- easier to slip a knife between his ribs than to get him to offer anything like that-- not anything real-- *sigh* That's half the reason why I started calling him "Jesus of Suburbia"-- that Green Day album is about adolescents...
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I certainly had an abrupt dislike of Ten. I was still heavily invested in Rose, and as I say, I watched S2 fully expecting that she'd leave on her own because he wasn't the same man anymore. When RTD said he had a "fantastic" way of Rose leaving, I had a far, faint hope that it would hinge on Bad Wolf, but instead, it was screamingly obvious from the Cybermen two-parter that she'd end up back, more or less, where she started. It was so obvious, I thought it was misdirection. But no. (And God, did I hate Ten - and Rose a little, too - in that two-parter!)
That's why I'm worried about rewatching S1; I'd be looking at it to see what the essential difference was-- if there was one.
I do think S1 was much better written. Bad Wolf is obvious in retrospect, but it's really not that obvious when you're going through it. And I've found more and more themes arcing through the series as I've watched again, whereas it just becomes rote repetition in S2 and S3. But the CE factor I think does play in. Quite a lot of it is his acting, but also his story awareness. There are so many stories of him confronting writers with critiques of plot and character development - and so far, only one of them disagreed with him, and that guy lost in a court of law, so... He says he can't write, but he's clearly a very astute editor, which is one of the reasons he's such a great actor. He plays across the story better than any actor I've ever seen, and I learned from DW not to doubt him. The first time I saw "Rose", I thought he was a little too intense in the scene arguing with the Nestene Consciousness, and I thought he played his disappointment at Rose turning him down too sadly. Of course, I was wrong - he was brilliantly showing us hints of things we would only understand in the second half of the series.
But Nine also says "I would make a very bad god", and right there is a huge difference.
I got a good fic out of that exact question
Where?
Ha-- half my author's notes on that fic were me trying to figure out a polite way to say, "Uh, now that I've seen Ten, I don't think I wrote him as enough of an asshole..."
*g*
And yes, Ten comes off as incredibly immature and adolescent, self-centered and selfish. This whole "broken" issue made me think about how I envision the characters. Someone (I'm blanking on exactly which of my flist said this) said that Ten is like Nine turned inside out - Nine is prickly on the outside and soft on the inside, Ten is soft on the outside and prickly on the inside. There's some truth to that, but I think it's more layered, like one of those models of the earth:
Nine is prickly on the "crust", incredibly soft and sweet in the "mantle", broken on the outer core, but with a strong moral inner core and "magnetic field".
Ten's surface is littered with his shiny little emo badges of brokenness and cutesiness; his mantle is hard and inflexible, and his core is, as far as I can see, empty. He's got fewer layers and is lacking center and coherence ("magnetic field").
I just can't get past the fact that Nine feels so whole and deep, despite it all, whereas Ten just seems erratic and superficial. I suspect some of that is acting talent and technique. I remember early on in S2, Billie Piper was interviewed and describing the difference between CE and DT, she said that CE was very focused and spent time off to himself working on his part, whereas she had so much fun giggling and laughing with DT between set-ups, it was like playing all the time. I remember thinking, "Um, Billie, do you realize what you've just said?" Some read it as a slam against CE, but for me, it just damned DT all to hell in terms of work ethic.
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Apparently they now figure that was just low self-esteem talking *sigh* One of the most prominent features of anybody actually virtuous is that they either don't know or don't care that they're particularly virtuous...
Where? Oh, so that wasn't too pathetically obvious of me? ;) Well, generally if I can read it later and think only, "Well, there's a couple things I would have changed, but it's got some good stuff in it", it's fairly good, so this should be the link on Teaspoon. There's universe-hopping that's not strictly canonically possible anymore, but as if I regard "Doomsday" et al highly enough to care. That was my "I'll be as nice to Ten as I can by pretending it actually could be possible for him to learn something" fic. Though, looking back, there's definitely some mixed signals in the end as to whether he actually will. Well, I tried.
shiny little emo badges *grin* Yes, *exactly*. I didn't even blink when Nine got hyper because you could tell there was a person beneath it. There were things he was deflecting, a reason to it; there was a person underneath looking out. I find it hard to believe, most of the time, that Ten's aware of anything. Maybe it *is* an acting thing--spending so much time on the show and the trappings and the lines that you forget there's supposed to be a person there, thinking them, reacting to what's going outside...
Well, I know nothing about acting, so maybe that's what's been driving me crazy for so long, knowing there was something off even more basic than all the philosophical reasons I could cite. All I've been able to express of it is "He doesn't think". To me, there aren't many sins greater than that. And that's where most of those worse sins stem from...
for me, it just damned DT all to hell in terms of work ethic-- that's how I'd read that, too. Well, not necessarily-- work ethic and cutting up aren't mutually exclusive, not at all, but looking at results-- apparently he's a type who had to pick one or the other, and he picked the wrong one. *sigh* Maybe it's an introvert/extrovert thing, somehow. Maybe a lot of it is.
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Genuine modesty is such a refreshing thing. There's a difference between cluelessness, confidence, and smugness. Actually, it's somewhat of a coincidence, but true, that Christopher Eccleston hits exactly the level of confidence and modesty that I love. He knows he's good - he's not clueless - but he doesn't display either false modesty or smugness, and yet when he's complimented directly to his face, he actually blushes! It's just so...sweet. If I hadn't seen it happen a couple of times (and seen a couple of reporters mention it), I wouldn't believe it.
I haven't had a chance to read anything yet, but rest assured, they're in my queue. Skipped to the top, even! I'm trying to write myself right now, so I tend not to read during the early stages so that I'm inspired to create my own to fill the void. It's kind of reverse carrot-and-stick.
To me, that's a major difference in the performances. I've said it before, but CE is an actor; DT is, at best, an entertainer. He doesn't seem to be so smug in real life, but many of his performances are (OMG, if you want a good belly laugh, try out Secret Smile - he is the most unterrifying psychopath I've ever seen). CE is playing a character, a person, a role that is the Doctor; DT is playing an icon (a flat, two-dimensional distillation), not a real character. I can see why people say "Oh, I can see parts of the old Doctors in him," because it's an imitation. CE created his own character, but within that, I could definitely see continuity.
that's how I'd read that, too. Well, not necessarily-- work ethic and cutting up aren't mutually exclusive, not at all, but looking at results--
That's really the point, isn't it? Some actors really can just turn it on, but I'll admit, I've not seen too many who I think are really good who can do that. You don't need all that melodramatic "method" crap to pull it off, but most people need a bit of concentration and quiet. (Hell, I'm just a musician, playing one part of a whole, and I often need that.) This was early on in S2, and I was thinking "Wow, he's really not getting this character at all," and Piper's comment suggested that she wasn't seeing the results. I know she loves him, but I hope she can get some distance and see that he wasn't good for her as an actress. I think Barrowman was able to pull away from him and establish his own strength, to some extent, but he, too, was far better with Eccleston. JB's not an alpha male, no matter how hard he tries. But he's more of an alpha than DT, and it showed in their interaction. It was like he was looking for an anchor, and scrabbling for a purchase on the relationship. DT just always strikes me as very selfish as an actor (with the exception of the beach scene in Doomsday - I point out that I can see it when he does it, which is pretty rare). I thought that in Casanova and Blackpool, and this makes no difference.
I saw your comment on Wendy's drabble last night. I have to say, I felt the same way. I was actually crying (okay, it had been a long, tiring day, with other emotional stresses), but it provoked me to make a fairly angry/depressed post that I almost immediately screened. But you're right; that hurt. It was part of a pattern I kept seeing all day, with people saying that Rose never loved Nine - she only fell in love when he turned into Ten (which drives me batty because I feel like Ten coasted on the back of the relationship she built with Nine, there was no development in S2 - show me development in S2, damn it!); Jack wasn't attracted to him it was just a shocking stunt; CE is old and ugly, etc. God, I find people narrow-minded and blind to body language. It makes me especially want to strangle the little teenyboppers who find it "gross" that Rose might be attracted to a 40-year-old man, but she "fits" with one who's 34? (Not to mention that the character is actually older, so just how shallow are they being?!)
Okay, back to work!
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But, lord, it was a horrifying thought, wasn't it? Nullify the whole of S1... that'd be harrowing even if that weren't the only part of the current show you liked, wouldn't it? Or it ought to be. Thing is, it's what you're saying; people don't just like Ten, they have to like Ten so damn much more, and diminish Nine in the process, and I'd bet anything more than half the fandom wouldn't even have a mixed reaction. Moral ambiguity? Huh? Well, it might stuff the timeline up a bit, meaning Rose technically shouldn't get to meet Ten in the first place, and that would be sad, but other than that, wouldn't it be awesome? *shivers*
Kya. Even as just a daydream, it hurts, doesn't it? And were the character ever to do that-- am I biased? Because I can see Ten being that crazy selfish. If he ever went back to watch her, I could see him actually doing that. Barely even out of character. Ten and "self-restraint" or "basic responsibility" are not concepts that naturally link in my mind. And all of Nine-- all of that season-- dismissed. Happens all the time.
Should you ever happen to read "Canary in the Coal Mine", that's the story I took my Nine in that ficlet from, because it was largely, for me, about Nine's arc, the symmetry of it, how and why it was about relearning how to put the weapon down-- and, though I wouldn't have thought it needed any stating, why it was good and special... And also because I know that Nine wouldn't be afraid to shoot people. *grin* I'm sorry, but that Ten in particular needed shootin'. I may'a been taught liberal values at that University, but Lordy, does Ten bring out the Old South in me. ^~
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I'll admit to catching my breath when I saw it. Of course, I was cheering, too. Not I think Wendy would say anything (she loves Nine, but she also likes Ten quite a lot), but I didn't expect others to love it. Maybe it's just because I have the occasional fantasy about punching Ten's lights out. I've gotten less circumspect about saying so, the more irritating he's become.
But, lord, it was a horrifying thought, wasn't it?
Truly, it was. I can ignore S2+ if I want, but please, please, don't mess with my S1. (I got used to doing this in Due South, where I love the first two seasons and am really not at all happy with the last one.) To negate Nine, IMO, is to do away with the one really beautiful thing they've done since the restart. I really dislike the Rose/Ten relationship (and am nauseated by the part of fandom who think they're the TWU WUV connection; even a little by the ones who think the relationship went forward). And most of all, I think Ten undermines everything Nine was.
I agree, I don't find it OOC of all for him to be that selfish. Even if we can't point to specific instances of him being selfish (which we can - GitF anyone?), his energy is just so selfish. It's all about him. That's just a dealbreaker in any situation for me, someone who cannot get outside his own problems. Poor Nine was bearing the brunt of the Time War, and he still worked hard to get outside his own pain.
Ten is just so adolescent. I got impatient with adolescents when I was 11, so you can imagine how I look upon that!
I still haven't managed to do any reading because I keep wanting to write. Then staring at a blank page. Taking up my needlework to work on my father's birthday present. Going back to the blank page. I have a feeling this isn't going to be a very productive day, but I'm still resisting giving in to read, just because I know it's a lost cause if I do...
I may'a been taught liberal values at that University, but Lordy, does Ten bring out the Old South in me. ^~
Have you ever read Florence King? I suspect you would love it!
Are you from FL originally?
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Except for lapses like that, I think I've gotten better at hiding my longing to punch Ten (and I don't think I should talk about Torchwood). I think a long period of avoiding him helped. It helps that my capacity for not posting things is fairly prodigious.
most of all, I think Ten undermines everything Nine was
*yes*
I got impatient with adolescents when I was 11
God, me too. I can't cite an age, but I remember thinking "I will *never* be like that" after one too many badly-written TV shows...
*grin* I haven't had an overly productive *year*. Well, yeah, it's February. Still. There's a feeling I totally understand.
No, I haven't read Florence King-- my book-reading has dropped rather pathetically since I started college. And discovered the internet. I'd put more of the blame on the latter. And yep, I've lived in Florida all my life. Actually, you could narrow that down to "in the Florida panhandle". Probably three counties. I think my dad's from Alabama (they moved around a lot), but my mother's side of the family is all here. I am, geographically, pretty limited. At least I can find all the major countries on a map... ^^
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I think the main thing I've had to do is realize that despite the fact that Christopher Eccleston can make anything feel more profound than it actually is (it's gonna be interesting to see what he can do with a Stephen Sommers version of GI Joe!), RTD's shows really are pretty flimsy. It's just that I got so used to S1 being much more. And I was more circumspect early on. I may have lost a few friends over "outing" myself as a Ten-h8er, but I got tired of pussyfooting around it. And I know it's not any of the usual excuses with me - the character is obnoxiously written and badly played. I wouldn't like him if I had no one to compare him to. The fact that he comes after a character so rich and an actor so good doesn't help him, but he earned my disgust all on his own, because I expected to like him.
I remember thinking "I will *never* be like that" after one too many badly-written TV shows...
Reminds me of that amusing MadTV spoof "Pretty White Kids with Problems"! :-) Sometimes, I think adolescents should just be locked in a pen and kept away from everyone. Girls can get out when they're 19, boys...maybe 30? Although it's hard to know how they would learn to be people without larger society to learn from, still, there'd be so much less melodrama. I know I was no picnic as a teenager, and I was a good kid (boringly so).
Florence King is worth the read, especially since you really are from the South if you're a panhandler. Southern Ladies and Gentlemen is a series of essays on various "types" one finds in the South and why they act the way they do; there's so much that's really insightful about race, class, gender, and sexuality, plus it's laugh-out-loud funny. (The tale of Miss Royal Montgomery is one of my favourites.) Her autobiography Confessions of a Failed Southern Lady reads like a novel. She's incredibly bawdy and forthright, it's astonishing that she wrote these in the late 1960s. Something happens toward the end of the autobiography that isn't really a surprise in this day and age, but was really rather extraordinary for her to talk about so openly back then.
I'm from deepest, darkest East Texas (just as like Northwestern Louisiana, don't you know). My father's side is Cherokees from an Osage reservation in Oklahoma, and my mother's folks were Welsh bond servants and remittance men who were sharecroppers throughout most of the last two centuries, so we're pretty much the most American mutts you can imagine. However, we've got lots of book-larnin'.
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It was a heck of a letdown. I know it took me a while to get over the backlash. If I have yet.
I know I was no picnic as a teenager, and I was a good kid (boringly so).
Same here...
Ooh, those Florence King books sound intriguing. I am *definitely* going to look those up (library should have them, but with our library, you never know for sure...).
Oh, cool! I wish I knew that much about my family history; it's fairly clear on my mother's side, but I know next to nothing about my father's side. Not the sort of thing my grandparents tend to talk about. Maybe they would if I asked, but I'm really not sure; they've got fantastic denial mechanisms, I think it's how they've lived this long. I have a strong suspicion that thirty seconds later it would be "And how are you doing at school?" ^^
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Well, you now know about as much as I do! I know what you mean about the denial, though. I'm pretty sure about several "dark secrets" that no one's confirmed (duh), but I can figure out from behaviour a few things; and there's a great-grandfather that no one's talking about! I suspect he was black (not uncommon around the reservation), which would make me very happy. White + black + red = totally American. But for some parts of the family, I think it would be less something that they themselves are ashamed of, but that they would be afraid others wouldn't take well.
I hope you find the Florence King. She's quite the storyteller!
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