Doctor Who 9x12 "Hell Bent"

Dec 06, 2015 17:24

Doctor Who 9x12 "Hell Bent". SPOILERS.

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doctor who, doctor who series 9

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alumfelga December 7 2015, 20:01:09 UTC
Sure, we can talk about the two episodes here :)

It is really interesting how different people receive things?
It is! Regardless of the episode, there are always people claiming it was the best episode for ages and other people saying it was the worst ever. ;)

I'm such a fan of Doctor Who music since episode 1. I love the fact that every main character and an alien race gets his/her/its theme that is played when he/she/it returns, I love when a known theme is being developed or rewritten in a new way, I love all the hints... Basically, the music is a very important part of the show for me. I even liked the Eleventh Doctor's theme before I liked the Eleventh Doctor ;) Or in the scene when the Doctor and Rose are separated, the first time I watched it I was annoyed with Rose by this time and I just wanted her gone, but the beaufitul "Doomsday" theme made me feel upset about her departure. Murray Gold, or, as I like to write, Murray Go(l)d.

Funny thing, since you mentioned that you liked the music in "Heaven Sent", I thought it didn't fit, as it was telling a different story than the rest of the episode. I wonder if I feel the same way when I'll rewatch it.

I didn't think the whole episode was boring, but at some point I just wanted the explanation, no more walking and scenes that do not have any meaning. They've been really interesting in the beginning but after a while, an endless sequence of images, no matter how fascinating, is tiring. But the explanation was surprising and satisfying (I am not thinking of a #1 version of the Doctor who apparently walked naked since no dry clothes would have waited for him...), and I knew the story about the bird so it worked pretty well.

Another thing I didn't like about "Heaven Sent" was the Doctor's "mind palace", or rather "mind TARDIS", because it looked like a reused element from "Sherlock". I don't like when S. Moffat turns the Doctor into Sherlock.

But, to make things clear, that episode was nowhere bad like "Sleep No More" and the experiment with having only Peter Capaldi on screen for almost entire time worked much, much better than whatever Mark Gatiss did in his episode. It's just... It didn't leave me with many thoughts and feelings, and this is what I look for. An episode to watch and forget.

I guess there is the difference between someone who watched the classics and who didn’t.
Hmm, I'm not sure if there's a simple dependence there ;) Do you think someone who's watched Classic Who would want to see Gallifrey more than someone who hasn't? Or less?
For a New Who-fan, Gallifrey may seem as a mystical place, the lost paradise even since it was gone for so long. In Classic Who, or at least in the episodes I watched so far it seems to be a "normal" planet, just another location, a bit more special because it's the Time Lords, but nothing that special as, you know, it's the last episode's before the Big Change!themespecial or it's the 50th anniversary's theme!special.
But for other people, it could be the other way around. Someone who's used to the fact that Gallifrey is/was gone may not care about its return, and someone who thinks it's a important part of the show might want to see it again.
I just know I wanted to see it again, very, very much. ;)

But in the Doctor Who Livejournal they point out what is so hard to swallow with Moffat’s stories - that nothing he ever states makes a difference.
That's true and I see it in Moffat's stories very often and used to complain about it constantly. No consequences, no bounds (, no sense). But "Hell Bent" made a difference for me, whether or not any of the established rules are going to last. I didn't care about the wibbly-wobbly, I cared about Clara and her fate, and what it was saying about the Doctor-companion relationship. You can be sure I'll be the first to complain if the companion will go back to a plot device status again but that episode was a moment of triumph and I'll be coming back to it every time I'd be upset about Donna.

I've forgotten you've been in that diner! You must have recognised it straight away. I didn't until the Doctor said he was there with Rory and Amy.

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dieastra December 7 2015, 21:31:36 UTC
Of course, "Heaven sent" isn't without flaws. Some say they knew right from the beginning that it was the Doctor all the time. I apparently was still with my thoughts somewhere else at the time, as I didn't notice. By now we should know the way Moffat writes... But yes, when he found the clothes it was basically clear. I'm sure there will be naked Doctor memes now ;) This is the fun part of fandom.

Also, if every room resets again, how come the wall doesn't? (or how come all the skulls are still there)

I realize why I like this episode so much. I've always liked movies like "Groundhog day" with time-loops. It's what made me become a Stargate fan. I watched their time-loop episode and loved it. In it, the day resets again and again, and the only two realizing are Jack and Teal'c, nobody else remembers. So they have to learn a difficult language for an important translation. No recording device works, as it resets as well. Only their brains can store the important data. Which takes a long time, and I guess is the same like chipping on this wall. In the meantime, to not go crazy, they have some extra fun, once they realized that whatever they do is without any consequences.

So, in a way, this was the dark version of that theme. It's what Moffat can do best, but after a while it gets tiring and same old, same old. And yes, I recognized the mind palace right away. The scene where Sherlock died in slow motion and explained how he survived. This was basically stealing from himself. It was a good way to break up the scenery though, otherwise it would have been really boring.

Of course, in the end it was a whole episode of nothing, as nothing actually happened, but Peter Capaldi made me feel for him, which hasn't happened often before (if we don't count CoE. Still waiting for THAT feeling).

The only music I know is the Jack theme from Torchwood and only because they once said that you can sing "here he comes in a ruddy great tractor" to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJd5ldQXJdo

I would have been happy if the only mentioning of Gallifrey was what the Ninth Doctor said - that it was gone, and that he was responsible for it. That's all I needed to know. I love heroes with dark secrets and regrets ;) I couldn't care less whether it's now in a pocket universe or out of phase or whatever else explanation they might have - remember, I don't see myself as a science fiction fan... Such explanations always bore me.

And yeah, there is a Doctor Who theme which I now remember, probably Eleven's.

A friend had posted a picture with the Doctor and his guitar in the diner and the Elvis in the background last week already. Apparently it was a promotion picture? She was with us in this diner so she tagged us all on Facebook ;) That's where I first heard about it. And I speculated whether it was just any diner but thought it might be indeed the same diner from his memories. And it seems I was right!

And we also were in Cardiff castle and the rooms and corridors of that castle also looked VERY familiar! This is such fun. You definitely need to go to Cardiff one day.

It didn't leave me with many thoughts and feelings

And for me it's the first where I think I might want to re-watch, as with the new insight and full impact at the end you may see it with different eyes at the beginning. I never had this urge with others recently. That sleeping one is a good one if one can't sleep though... Although I then only paid half attention and even missed the big reveal everyone is going crazy about, that the camera perspectives were from the people's eyes. I probably should rewatch for that bit. I just thought it was wobbly camera which I HATE. Makes me sea-sick.

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alumfelga December 8 2015, 20:33:52 UTC
Some say they knew right from the beginning that it was the Doctor all the time.
I suppose, if you knew it was going to be only Peter C. there (with glimpses of Jenna), it was easier to guess. I didn't. I decided not to watch any materials except the "next week" trailers, and not to read any interviews so I don't get overexcited and then disappointed.

The fandom never fails when it comes to having fun ;)

Also, if every room resets again, how come the wall doesn't?
I believe the wall was special because it was the way out. The skulls were the Doctor's so they didn't reset, only the elements of the castle did.

I like time loops, too. Do you happen to know Stanislaw Lem, a Polish science-fiction writer? Probaly not but he's been translated into English, German and Russian, as wiki tells me ;) He's mostly written about serious themes but I adore his light-hearted, comedic stories, they're really funny. One of my favourites is a short story from "Dzienniki gwiazdowe" ("The Star Diaries"), when a travelling astronaut's ship goes into some "time vortices" and there are a few version of the man, the Monday-him, the Tuesday-him et cetera, and they try to communicate and fix the ship so it can get out of the time vortices but they are really bad at it. It's time loops in time loops with some more time loops but it all makes sense and it's very entertaining.
I found the story online in English, if you're interested:
http://english.lem.pl/works/novels/the-star-diaries/154-the-seventh-voyage

I must watch "Groundhog day"... Do you know more good movies with time loops?

if we don't count CoE. Still waiting for THAT feeling
Yeah. That's the writing + acting. Just one of the two isn't enough, sadly.

The only music I know is the Jack theme from Torchwood and only because they once said that you can sing "here he comes in a ruddy great tractor" to it.
When I heard about "here he comes in a ruddy great tractor" for the first time, I laughed for a really long time ;)

I would have been happy if the only mentioning of Gallifrey was what the Ninth Doctor said - that it was gone, and that he was responsible for it. That's all I needed to know.
I see. To be honest, I feel the same about the reason the Doctor left Gallifrey - I'd be happy if it was just "I was bored". The hybrid thing, even if it wasn't explored much in the end, was a needless addition.

And it seems I was right!
You were ;)

That sleeping one is a good one if one can't sleep though...
Sadly, it's true. You know you made a horror episode wrong when it's a sleeping pill.

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dieastra December 8 2015, 21:30:36 UTC
Right, like you I did not read any interviews or spoilers so went into the episodes without any knowledge. That makes a difference indeed. I don't think I even saw any "next time" as my downloads didn't have those.

You may be surprised but I do indeed know the name of Stanislaw Lem ;) I have, in fact, known it for a very long time. That goes back till me being a teenager in Eastern Germany times in the Eighties. We had a magazine for pioneers, and in it you could announce things for swapping. And a lot of those requests were for books by Lem.

But since I never considered myself a sci-fi fan, I never sought any of it out. Thank you very much for the link, I'll definitely read that! That seems right up my alley.

You haven't seen "Groundhog Day" yet? Admittedly it's been a long time since I watched it and I don't remember much but it's a classic. I don't remember all the titles of what else I have seen. One which is not exactly a time loop is called "The Butterfly effect". As in, the wings of a butterfly can make a hurricane. Someone tries to change things, but in changing them he actually makes it worse, so he has to go back and change it again which again has a different outcome than desired... shows us that we should not temper with stuff as we have no idea what effects it can have. I think there was also a love story involved if I remember correctly.

Hey, look what I found! There really is a list of everything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_featuring_time_loops

"Retroactive" was very good. I also remember having seen "Christmas every day" which was really nice. It's about a teenager who does not like Christmas. So of course the loop is Christmas day. In the beginning he is very selfish but gradually becomes nicer, helps people and in the end celebrates the perfect Christmas, being nice to his little sister etc. and that breaks the loop. That would fit well into this season!

"Looper" with Bruce Willis was also interesting and had lots of twists, and I have seen "Triangle" with the boat as well.

From TV, I have seen time-loop episodes of "Supernatural" and "X-Files". "Eureka" also had one. Seems every series has to do one at one time ;) I wish you could see the "Stargate" one, even without knowing any of the characters (as I did) it was hilarious. Sadly there are only short clips on youtube, they would not be enough to show it to you.

You know, there also were Wraith in "Stargate: Atlantis". Since I watched the "Doctor Who" finale, I have a funny idea for an action figure crossover ;)

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alumfelga December 9 2015, 21:31:18 UTC
I am, a bit, surprised but very glad people were looking for his books. As I said, I prefer a lighter approach but his works are considered very good.

I know, "Groundhog Day" is a classic, I just somehow missed it. I've seen "The Butterfly Effect" though. I liked the idea, the whole movie - not so much.

I've seen that episode of "Supernatural", it's been nice. I also remember a similar episode of "Strange Days at Blake Holsey High" when a perfectionist was living the same, awful day a couple of times until she accepted people are allowed to be imperfect and make mistakes. It looks like it's a common thing in stories with time loops - you're supposed to learn something to get out of them.

I'll look for that "Stargate" episode!

Crossovers are always fun :)

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dieastra December 9 2015, 21:36:47 UTC
The Stargate episode is called "Window of Opportunity".

As for the story, I wrote my thoughts in a PM ;)
But I am definitely a sci-fi light person as well. That's why I loved "Eureka" so much. It was fun.

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alumfelga December 13 2015, 21:03:36 UTC
I've watched that episode of Stargate (thanks for mentioning it!). It was fun, although not as spectacular as, for instance, "Heaven Sent". But that idea that they had to learn a language and translate a very long inscription with no notes and a teacher who'd remember everything what's happened was clever. Actually, it might have been more clever than punching a wall for so many times. I know, the Doctor couldn't have done something like that because he didn't remember the previous "days" and he had to figure everything out every single time but when you think about it, a story with a time loop has more potential when someone remembers what's happened and can change his behaviour next time.

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dieastra December 14 2015, 13:47:43 UTC
Hey, that's cool that you were able to see that episode! That's right, the mood is very different, but the funny scenes are what I love most about it. In fact, they were only invented as they had to pad it up, since the story was too short for 45 minutes. So basically they told Rick to have fun. A lot is improvised.

I love the juggling. And Daniel turning, "Guys, are you getting this? It's important". His expression is comedy gold. Daniel and Jack always work very well together in this regard in the series. Or the beginning of each day with the Froot Loops: "Ask me tomorrow".

And there is also some stuff which one does not understand if they are not a fan - I didn't either on first watch - for example when Jack gives his resignation so he is able to kiss Sam. That one was for the shippers. As they are not allowed to act on their feelings, since he is her commanding officer.

And that one scene where Jack is smashing that not working recording device onto the table. RDA improvised that, and in the background the poor props manager was jumping up and down: "Don't smash the expensive prop!" LOL

And the poor exasperated general: "Colonel, what the hell are you doing!" - "In the middle of my backswing?!?"

You see I can quote a lot of that ;)

Hey, I can even show you my action figure story ;) A friend said that she always wanted to do the juggling scene. And I thought I have no blackboard. But then I realized, I do! Another friend was writing the alien language onto it (no idea how she did THAT), another friend made the books, I made the "Wacko" plate and then we shot this: http://dieastra.livejournal.com/1703.html

But the reason why this episode made me a Stargate fan was the mood shift at the end. From silly to serious. When it turned out, that the man was only doing it to see his wife once again, and when Jack talked about his son Charlie, which was very emotional and from the close-ups of the other characteres I could see that these are people that are friends and care for each other and feel for each other. It hit me deeply, and it made me watch on.

but when you think about it, a story with a time loop has more potential when someone remembers what's happened and can change his behaviour next time.

That is true. This is the same in the Groundhog day movie, he changes every time. It's funny to think what if I did this thing differently or that, and if it does not work, you try something else. In real life, you can never go back to point zero.

And in that Stargate episode we only saw a bit of how they had to convince the others every day to believe them.

I wonder though how the Doctor knew how many years had passed if he didn't remember? Did he count the skulls?

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alumfelga December 14 2015, 18:19:20 UTC
As they are not allowed to act on their feelings, since he is her commanding officer.
I figured that out ;) I was just wondering if there was something between them in future episodes and that was just a sneak peek of his (and hers, she didn't reject him) feelings, or the topic was never brought up again.

Poor props manager! But hey, actors go all the way to give their best performance. ;)

Hey, I can even show you my action figure story ;)
Nice story! You chose best scenes ;) I think I liked the one with playing golf most, it was just a pure fun.

I wonder though how the Doctor knew how many years had passed if he didn't remember?
He was talking about the positions of the stars: Who's been playing about with the stars? They're all in the wrong places, for this time zone, anyway. I know I didn't time travel to get here. I can feel time travel. If I didn't know better, I'd say I've travelled seven thousand years into the future. But I do know better. So who moved the stars?

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dieastra December 14 2015, 21:02:05 UTC
Oh yes, there's a lot of shipping in Stargate - before and after this episode ;) Well, actually, in season one there were only friendly hugs and such, until the fans started to interprete them in their way, and the producers liked to tease it here and there. But they had an Air Force advisor on set who made sure that they got everything right, and before it could go too serious he intervened so they had to step back.

There were the usual parallel universes and doppelgangers (Sam with long hair) where things were differently, so we got lots of kissing scenes ;) And even a kinda (dream sequence) wedding scene in a funny episode where they spoofed everything from Star Trek to Farscape. But mostly they had to rely a lot on longing glances and faces that spoke without words. And, what I didn't like about this whole shipping business, that the friendly hugs and harmless touches vanished, and they acted very stiffly around each other, careful to not giving any indication for bad thoughts of others, you know? But I missed the easy camradery from the early times. In the end, there was as much of a conclusion we would get, in Sam once talking about "this guy in Washington" - after Jack had been transferred to the Homeworld security. The rest is in books and fanfictions.

Aside of that, I got to see Amanda Tapping and Richard Dean Anderson close-up and personal on his very first convention, where he was very shy and insecure and she was really there to hold his hand and make him comfortable, so to speak, and gave back rubs and you could see how close friends they were. I think if she hadn't already be married when they met something might have indeed sparkled ;) They seem to share the same kind of goofy humor, and that's always the most important thing, right?

Who's been playing about with the stars? They're all in the wrong places, for this time zone, anyway. I know I didn't time travel to get here. I can feel time travel. If I didn't know better, I'd say I've travelled seven thousand years into the future. But I do know better. So who moved the stars?

Ah, thanks! Sorry, that slipped by me somehow. He talked a lot, and it was a lot to progress. But I wanted to watch it again anyway.

By the way, we watched Galavant ;) All 8 episodes. We started half an hour before midnight, and thought, well, maybe one, just to get a look. We then stopped around 3 AM after the fifth and watched the last three the other day. And we giggled a lot. Watching together is so much more fun.

And I am also happy that I was able to show off my Vic and his Star Trek Continues series, we also watched all five episodes of that, which was much more than I expected (my goal had been at least the two that I love most).

And on Sunday we all were in theatre, and saw the Canterville Ghost! It was awesome. Also a lot to laugh, with all the British and American stereotypes.

And we set up a lovely kinda Star Wars Cantina crossover scene with figures from a lot of fandoms. You'll love it but I'll keep it for after Christmas, as nobody has much time now for the internet anyway.

So, all in all a pretty successful weekend!

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