In a quandary:

[altyronsmaker]

re: consent vs. responsibility

Now, wait, stop the kneejerk, red-flag response (if you're having one).

First off: I've only been in one situation that has risen my red-flag of possible sexual assault and/or abuse.

Comments

[sevendeadlyfun]

Yes, this is a form of victim blaming. Just because the specifics of a situations wouldn't have felt threatening or intimidating to you doesn't mean the situation is not threatening or intimidating. Coercion and intimidation are not always -I would say seldom are they- obvious. Sometimes simply the presence of a person in a particular space can be intimidating. I'll refer you here to schrodinger's rapist by starling for more examples of that. But lack of a weapon or verbalized threat does not mean the assailant isn't engaging in coercive or intimidating behavior.

I have to say as both a victim of assault and a victim advocate, I find this idea incredibly upsetting. Being forced or coerced or intimidated into participating in one's own assault is traumatic enough. Being told that saying no doesn't outweigh the participation is revictimizing.

Participation does not equal consent. In the situation you've set up, it barely equals acquiescence. No means no. Irregardless of any elaborate Well What If scenario, lack of verbal consent or verbal rejection (No. I don't like this. This isn't okay. Stop.) outweighs any supposed "consent" a person's actions may imply. That sort of thing - the No Don't Stop scenario - only works in fiction and carefully controlled SSC D/s scenes. Outside of that? It's sexual assault, plain and simple.

And if this in is reference to the events of the con - telling people you're going to watch movies when you're really going to be performing a live sex show is coercion and that is what makes it assault. It's no different from flashers or subway frotteurs - a form of sexual assault the victim is forced to participate in.

[altyronsmaker]

Actually, it wasn't in reference to a con thing - or it might have been vaguely. There was a discussion about implied consent on one of my flist's journals, and I just got to thinking about it. (that discussion was related to, but not directly about, the con thing. I really don't know anything about that situation, so I can't speak to it.)

I have to say as both a victim of assault and a victim advocate, I find this idea incredibly upsetting. Being forced or coerced or intimidated into participating in one's own assault is traumatic enough. Being told that saying no doesn't outweigh the participation is revictimizing.

Wait. Confused, here. What idea are you refering to?

Also, I'm looking over what I wrote, and I don't see where I implied that participation overrides a 'no.'

If someone says no or in some other way indicates that they are uncomfortable/don't want to participate/whatever, then oh yeah. That's a big fat negatory there. No is no, and the word certainly outweighs participation. I get that. I implied that in the post.

What my question was, where I've been confused (because in situations OTHER than being severely inebriated, I've ALWAYS been able to express unwillingness or whatever - it's never been an issue for me, so it's hard for me to see it as in issue for someone else) is what if there's NO expression of discomfort? I'm not saying that the lack of a response implies consent (I'm aware enough that consent has to be given with a 'yeah, i'm up for it' or some other affirmative indication.). What I'm wondering is, in the absence of either denial OR consent, can there really be ANY blame assigned?

My thinking is, no. It's not consent, but it's not refusal either. It's that gray area.

[sevendeadlyfun]

Wait. Confused, here. What idea are you refering to?

The idea you're promulgating that consent is a tricky thing. It's not. You say there are gray areas and I'm saying no there aren't. If there's any uncertainty about whether a person can or has consented, then the default is no. If you can't be certain that a person has or can consent AND you proceed? Yes, you are guilty of sexual assault.

To quote Shakesville's post on what a rape culture looks like: Rape culture is the insistence on trying to distinguish between different kinds of rape via the use of terms like "gray rape" or "date rape." So the notion that consent is tricky? That anything but an enthusiastic and repeated denial is as good as consent? Is part and parcel of the rape culture that we live in.

There's no gray area. Consent should be enthusiastic and vocal. "I don't know" isn't consent. Simply stripping off my clothes (without accompanying verbal consent) doesn't mean I'm consenting to sex. I may not even really consent to stripping off my clothes, but I feel pressured or intimidated or coerced into doing so. I may believe that if I don't participate, I will be hurt. I may believe that if I don't participate, I will receive some sort of non-physical reprisals.

Also, I'm looking over what I wrote, and I don't see where I implied that participation overrides a 'no.'

You said However, "I don't know" followed by steps to participate can be construed as consent. Someone saying, "I don't know if I want to do that," then starting to do it indicates to me that what their mouth is saying is a lie. If that doesn't mean what it says, that expressing denial of consent is not enough to indicate a person doesn't want to proceed - I honestly don't know what would be considered enough.

No matter what, nothing means consent but consent. You said It's not consent, but it's not refusal either. Yes, yes it is refusal. Because it isn't consent.

[altyronsmaker]

The idea you're promulgating that consent is a tricky thing. It's not.

I'm not promulgating it. I was interrogating it. I even say, "this is my question." I DON'T know what the protocal is, because consent has never, other than the incident I related above, been an issue for me. So I wanted to know, is my thinking correct here? Is this what everyone is up in arms about? EDUCATE ME. That was the purpose of my post. I certainly was NOT espousing a hard held opinion or fundamental understanding of the subject. By no means. I just dn't have enough experience with it.

Hmm, asking a question by making a statement...not the most CLEAR communication on the planet, eh?

I, as a rule, don't do the victim blaming game. I'm the last person who's going to say anything like "you shouldn't have been in that situation." "You should have done this or that" or "You can't wear those kinds of clothes and expect to be left alone." If my grandma EVER heard me say that, she's whup my ass and I'm 34 years old.

According to her, I, and anyone else, have the god given right to be in any situation/place/company/clothes/level of intoxication I want to be in and EXPECT to NOT be assaulted or made uncomfortable. She, and the other women of my family, raised me to believe that. And I do. What I do, where I am, WHAT I am has no control over what another person chooses to do - even if that person chooses to do it to me. Their actions are on them.

Even with what happened to me, it NEVER OCCURRED TO ME that I was at fault for being assaulted. NEVER. IN NO WAY. My quandary about THAT incident was, "was I raped?" "did I consent or not?" "Did my friends take advantage of my drunkenness to have sex with me?" Mainly I had those questions, because I could not remember. Once I got that squared away, once I figured out that, "Oh yeah, dumbass, if you can't remember, then NO you didn't consent and your friends raped you," I was able to confront them both and say "You did this to me. Why? What gave you the right? Who in the hell did you think you were?" And me being able to do that, from what I understand, is rare.

Was my level of inebriation my fault? OH yeah. I was an idiot to drink so much that night. Was my intoxication an excuse for them to do what they did? HELL FUCK NO. My choice did NOT necessitate or cause theirs.

Finally, thank you for the links. I've since bookmarked them. I didn't know 'rape culture' as a term. I've always wondered why women have to be hyper vigilant, why we have to be the ones who learn self defense, why we have to constantly be on guard, careful of where we go alone, all that mess. It seemed patently unfair. Thanks for giving me the terminology for that bit of business.

Also, thanks for making the time to engage with me on this.

[sevendeadlyfun]

Thank you. I apologize if I was overly harsh or critical. It's just very frustrating because so often, as in the case of several people on LJ right now, people really and seriously do think that if you don't verbally deny consent and remove yourself from the situation immediately, you are responsible for whatever happens after that. Which is rage inducing because it is never the opposite: that other people should not behave in ways that make you feel unsafe or threatened.

Having this type of dimwittery come from other women, women who call themselves feminists? It's just all the worse. So again, my apologies if I seemed to be attacking you. The pressure has definitely been building.

And I'm really glad you liked the links. Shakesville is a great place for getting both the basics and the deeper insight on quite a lot of topics.

[altyronsmaker]

Ah. Nah, you're good. Like I said, the whole thing was an exploration, a query into something I'm really ignorant about. So I wanted to get some fb on what I was considering BEFORE truly making up my mind. I didn't feel attacked. I did feel a need to clarify because sometimes I muddle things up, but definitely not attacked. :)

As for personal responsiblity...we, each individual, woman or man, are responsible for our own actions. What other people do is NOT on us. EVEN if that other person does something to us. That's not our fault. It's like...Your rights end where mine begin, and my responsibility ends where yours begins. That sort of thing.

[altyronsmaker]

Also, that link to schrodinger's rapist isn't working. I'd like to read it, too.

[sevendeadlyfun]

The link is working for me, but here's the URL:

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

If that doesn't work, just google schrodinger's rapist and it will be the first result.