I love the gate-keepers. They're my favorite thing in the museum. Hulk no smash!
We are protecting the statues not for british culture or american or greek or chinese but ALL cultures. They are our shared history. They are the history of those that want to smash them. They are the property of the future.
I get the idea of a book being important and sacred. It is not more important and sacred than one of the gate-keepers if you have tens of thousands of copies of that book with more being made every day. Your specific book can be replaced the same day. However, like I said, I do understand the idea of the book being sacred. One certainly can ask others to treat it with some respect. The difference being that if someone does smash one of the statues a lot of people will be REALLY PISSED We don't kill over it. If we were to set armed guards around the pyramid and someone rushed those guards trying to blow up the pyramids - yep, we'd prob shoot. But that isn't aiming a gun because of someone's religion. They could believe in Flying Spagetti Monster, doesn't matter.
And frankly we bloody well DO get involved when lives are threatened, thank you very much. All lives. All over the globe. UN Forces, NATO Forces, Peace Corps, Doctors Without Borders, Red Cross - we're in there. Our Forces military and otherwise are in the world trying to keep some peace and protect the oppressed. We're not perfect at it.
The Middle East is a bloody MESS. Has been since recorded time. There are more sides than a chinese buffet. (heh) Someone always hating on someone else for some old reason or some new reason or no reason. And we're accused of being uninvolved AND too involved?? WTH!
At least with the pyramids we know where they are and where we stand. ;)
This is the part where it begins to fall apart though. Because the British Muslims would save the very replaceable book over the Statues. Worse than this, if I say "yeah of course we're saving the Lamassu" the reaction tends to be one of betrayal. They feel betrayed because they trusted us as fellow Britons to defend what was important to them, and when we put other things before this they start to get insecure that we don't care about their needs as much as the wants of the native Celts. In a majority Celt situation it exposes their insecurity that Muslim wants are in the minority and really very much subject to the benevolence of the Celt Majority who are going to set the societal tone of what is "acceptable"
Also, nothing is more important than Islam. Absolutely nothing. Not my life, not their lives, not the lives of their children. I've heard Londoners say - and they seem to mean it - that insulting the Prophet is worse than taking the lives of their children. And this is what we Celts don't understand. When they criticise the Materialist West they don't just mean about the credit cards and pursuit of gold. They mean the British Museum. If I care about some secular physical objects more than the divine then this is wrong. It's fine, to a point, the point being when I start to treasure or value non-Islamic things over Islam, or any of the tenants of Islam.
Also, there is only God and Islam. The past was God, the future was God. When we, as historians try to perserve the past, this is at best a fools errand in the face of the eternity that is God, and at worst the materialist propagation of idoltry. It is an arrogance. This is what the Patricians say when you try to talk to them about it, also the Lammasu involve the worship of the Pagan Gods. "Yeah" you say "but this was 1000 years before the Prophet was born, they couldn't have known any better" But that is not an excuse - their continued existence is a disrespect to God, and also why am I continuing allowing this abomination to continue to exist. It would be better if it were gone, as it keeps alive a time when the true God was not honoured.
To give the Iraqis their Mesopotamian History, or make the Egypts proud of their glorious past, is to give them an identity other than Islam. It divides them into nations and cultural tribes and not the one united Islamic State which existed under Mohammad. It divides Brothers and Sisters from the Unity of Islam. It also makes it abundantly clear there was a time and peoples and Gods before Islam began, and things that have a beginning can also have an end. The past false Gods should not be spoken of even to condemn them because it's an affront to the one true God. Or, as I like to think of it "we must under no circumstances mention the competition," or rather by this point "even mention that there was competition" Human Civilization being 5000 years old, the Westerners tend to understand what it means for their own religion when told Christianity didn't turn up until 3000 years into that time frame. The idea, that there's 4000 years of polytheism before Mohammed comes along, and that various sections of the Middle East were ruling vast, affluent Empires perfectly happily and not being divinely smited whilst following precisely zero of the Abrahamic commandments is - I must admit - an idea that is a threat to Islam.
It is never easy to debate with religious people. I think you're doing well.
I'm sure they'd find the Flying Spagetti Monster /high/ offensive. ;) One of the few bits of advice my father gave me was, "Avoid fanatics. They have no sense of humor."
Yes, our needs are religious freedom and tolerance and freedom /from/ religion. Which is why they and their families are living in Britian and NOT part of the Church Of England. Shocking. No one has said, "Welcome. Church of England. Did you want cake or death? No cake? Why yes, there is an appeal system. We dislocated all your limbs and ask again if you really wouldn't prefer cake." (she says totally ripping off Eddie Izzard.)
Le sigh. I'm pretty sure that "I don't want to be Muslim, thanks" isn't going to fly with them either.
How about, "You know that History thing you want to erase? You're repeating it. Spoiler - it doesn't end well."
[edit - what the heck are they going to do with china?]
I don't know. If I could argue against religion I'd have the "Happy Holidays" war here licked.
They've no sense of humor.
In lighter and better news ----- did you see the news interview with a father in Paris helping his 3 year old son cope with the paris attacks? It is so sweet it will make you cry. Check youtube.
Yeah I saw that video, it made me sad though because the little kid thought they'd have to leave home because of the bad guys. I mean his Dad reassured him and he cheered up, but a little Parisian even thinking that. It's not right, they shouldn't have to put up with this crap.
I don't actually want freedom from religion here I must admit, and I don't want us to have legislation or policy about these things. I just want people to be reasonable, and generally speaking everyone here has been jolly reasonable about everything for the past 400 years. The unreasonableness is upsetting the balance of things. Part of me does think to begin with "oh maybe I'm being unreasonable by not being open enough to change and cultural differences and I should try to understand.." but then I must admit it changes to me being like "errrr, you know what - it's not me it's you. You need to change."
We are protecting the statues not for british culture or american or greek or chinese but ALL cultures. They are our shared history. They are the history of those that want to smash them. They are the property of the future.
I get the idea of a book being important and sacred. It is not more important and sacred than one of the gate-keepers if you have tens of thousands of copies of that book with more being made every day. Your specific book can be replaced the same day.
However, like I said, I do understand the idea of the book being sacred. One certainly can ask others to treat it with some respect.
The difference being that if someone does smash one of the statues a lot of people will be REALLY PISSED
We don't kill over it.
If we were to set armed guards around the pyramid and someone rushed those guards trying to blow up the pyramids - yep, we'd prob shoot. But that isn't aiming a gun because of someone's religion. They could believe in Flying Spagetti Monster, doesn't matter.
And frankly we bloody well DO get involved when lives are threatened, thank you very much. All lives. All over the globe. UN Forces, NATO Forces, Peace Corps, Doctors Without Borders, Red Cross - we're in there. Our Forces military and otherwise are in the world trying to keep some peace and protect the oppressed. We're not perfect at it.
The Middle East is a bloody MESS. Has been since recorded time. There are more sides than a chinese buffet. (heh) Someone always hating on someone else for some old reason or some new reason or no reason. And we're accused of being uninvolved AND too involved?? WTH!
At least with the pyramids we know where they are and where we stand. ;)
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Also, nothing is more important than Islam. Absolutely nothing. Not my life, not their lives, not the lives of their children. I've heard Londoners say - and they seem to mean it - that insulting the Prophet is worse than taking the lives of their children. And this is what we Celts don't understand. When they criticise the Materialist West they don't just mean about the credit cards and pursuit of gold. They mean the British Museum. If I care about some secular physical objects more than the divine then this is wrong. It's fine, to a point, the point being when I start to treasure or value non-Islamic things over Islam, or any of the tenants of Islam.
Also, there is only God and Islam. The past was God, the future was God. When we, as historians try to perserve the past, this is at best a fools errand in the face of the eternity that is God, and at worst the materialist propagation of idoltry. It is an arrogance. This is what the Patricians say when you try to talk to them about it, also the Lammasu involve the worship of the Pagan Gods. "Yeah" you say "but this was 1000 years before the Prophet was born, they couldn't have known any better" But that is not an excuse - their continued existence is a disrespect to God, and also why am I continuing allowing this abomination to continue to exist. It would be better if it were gone, as it keeps alive a time when the true God was not honoured.
To give the Iraqis their Mesopotamian History, or make the Egypts proud of their glorious past, is to give them an identity other than Islam. It divides them into nations and cultural tribes and not the one united Islamic State which existed under Mohammad. It divides Brothers and Sisters from the Unity of Islam. It also makes it abundantly clear there was a time and peoples and Gods before Islam began, and things that have a beginning can also have an end. The past false Gods should not be spoken of even to condemn them because it's an affront to the one true God. Or, as I like to think of it "we must under no circumstances mention the competition," or rather by this point "even mention that there was competition" Human Civilization being 5000 years old, the Westerners tend to understand what it means for their own religion when told Christianity didn't turn up until 3000 years into that time frame. The idea, that there's 4000 years of polytheism before Mohammed comes along, and that various sections of the Middle East were ruling vast, affluent Empires perfectly happily and not being divinely smited whilst following precisely zero of the Abrahamic commandments is - I must admit - an idea that is a threat to Islam.
Reply
It is never easy to debate with religious people. I think you're doing well.
I'm sure they'd find the Flying Spagetti Monster /high/ offensive. ;)
One of the few bits of advice my father gave me was, "Avoid fanatics. They have no sense of humor."
Yes, our needs are religious freedom and tolerance and freedom /from/ religion.
Which is why they and their families are living in Britian and NOT part of the Church Of England. Shocking.
No one has said, "Welcome. Church of England. Did you want cake or death? No cake? Why yes, there is an appeal system. We dislocated all your limbs and ask again if you really wouldn't prefer cake." (she says totally ripping off Eddie Izzard.)
Le sigh. I'm pretty sure that "I don't want to be Muslim, thanks" isn't going to fly with them either.
How about, "You know that History thing you want to erase? You're repeating it. Spoiler - it doesn't end well."
[edit - what the heck are they going to do with china?]
I don't know. If I could argue against religion I'd have the "Happy Holidays" war here licked.
They've no sense of humor.
In lighter and better news -----
did you see the news interview with a father in Paris helping his 3 year old son cope with the paris attacks? It is so sweet it will make you cry. Check youtube.
Reply
I don't actually want freedom from religion here I must admit, and I don't want us to have legislation or policy about these things. I just want people to be reasonable, and generally speaking everyone here has been jolly reasonable about everything for the past 400 years. The unreasonableness is upsetting the balance of things. Part of me does think to begin with "oh maybe I'm being unreasonable by not being open enough to change and cultural differences and I should try to understand.." but then I must admit it changes to me being like "errrr, you know what - it's not me it's you. You need to change."
Reply
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