Yes, it's interesting to speculate what kind of Steward Denethor would have been in peacetime, or even in a situation less desperate:
"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."
Sort of in the back of mind is the idea that this drabble takes place shortly after Faramir has had to tell his (mid-to-late-teenage) children about the pyre.
I think he'd have been a bloody good one, especially if one or both of Finduilas & Boromir survived. I think he might have made a passable father under those circumstances too. The favouritism towards Boromir, his heir, would have played out better if Finduilas lived & was even handed. (I haven't looked at the timeline of late, but if Finduilas had lived there might have been other children too.)
Reading the quotation, it strikes me that he says his own master.
...shortly after Faramir has had to tell his (mid-to-late-teenage) children about the pyre.
Aie. Suicide & madness are now rather loaded for me. I'm glad now I never had any children.
I agree he would have been a good Steward. A very traditional, strict father, but if Finduilas has been present, that would have softened the household environment considerably. And, as you say, if Boromir had remained the favourite, that wouldn't have mattered so much if Finduilas was compensating. (I think Finduilas might have had more children, she's 36 when she dies, IIRC.) It's the palantir, reeally, that ruins Denethor, and he only looks into that out of desperation and duty.
Not even the palantir, so much as Sauron twisting what he sees there. I hate the way his later actions are demonised by some parts of fandom (not helped by the hideous portrayal in the Jackson film) when he's as much a victim of the Enemy as anyone, and stronger than most.
What we need is cheery Finduilas-got-better stories :)
Yes, the strain of that battle of wills, which I think he gradually starts losing. It must become steadily easier for Sauron to twist what he's seeing over the years.
What we need is cheery Finduilas-got-better stories :)
I wish someone would give that a go! There are loads of "Boromir Lives!" stories, after all.
I can't think of one offhand. She's such a shadow in the text that it would basically mean creating an original character, which most people don't seem to enjoy. (Don't know why; I'm coming to realise it's my favourite bit.)
I think something on the lines of Dorothea and Casaubon. Obviously Denethor would be a tremendously charismatic figure: brilliant, those Numenorean good looks, and I think Finduilas would take her role and responsibility as first lady of Gondor incredibly seriously. And I think that Denethor falls for someone young, beautiful, and gentle, who cares for him and is willing to devote herself to him/his job/Gondor. That's how I read it.
And slash young-Denethor stories make perfect sense to me too.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of it quite like that (the longer age spans make age differences work differently, perhaps). I think there's a tremendous element of willing self-immolation in Dorothea's choice of Casaubon, and also a lack of other intelligent options presenting themselves. I certainly don't think the latter would apply to Finduilas. At least Denethor isn't impotent...
No, I don't see Finduilas as having any political ambitions that she's sublimating. I guess I think of her and Denethor as making and trying to achieve a very conventional, traditional marriage - with all the strain that historically put on both parties. And staring Mordor in the face doesn't help.
I see Dorothea at the opening as the type of nun who wants to share in Christ's agony. At least with Finduilas the cause she's sacrificing herself for (Gondor) is a real one, and one where she has the potential to make a real, if small, difference. I can see there being a role laid out historically for the First Lady of Gondor that goes beyond social events and into, say, charity work. Where it fails for Finduilas is where the cause looks to be as hopeless/pointless as Casaubon's search for the key to all mythology. Perhaps the Finduilas Happy Ending Story has Denethor expiring? (It might even be a Denethor HES as well, if he died fighting Sauron for his soul.) Though I'm not too cheery about the fate of Gondor in the hands of Boromir.
Yes, that's an important difference: Dorothea loses faith in Casaubon's entire project, whereas Finduilas continues to believe in Gondor, but doesn't think it's going to survive.
Perhaps the Finduilas Happy Ending Story has Denethor expiring?
That's sad :-(
I think I am more positive about Boromir's Stewardship than you are, particularly with Faramir as chief sidekick. What worries you about it?
I don't think Boromir's too bright and I think he depends too much on the might in arms of Gondor. It would depend on how much he relies on Faramir's wisdom, I suppose, and how much being Steward goes to his head.
I like Isabeau's interpretation of him as a canny operator if not book smart. You'd have to be fairly smart to be that well regarded as Captain-General, even if your Quenya isn't up to much. Or do you think Denethor is entirely the brains there.
Lovely. I do think Faramir & Denethor had a lot in common, but I hope Faramir manages to profit by his father's errors.
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"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."
Sort of in the back of mind is the idea that this drabble takes place shortly after Faramir has had to tell his (mid-to-late-teenage) children about the pyre.
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Reading the quotation, it strikes me that he says his own master.
...shortly after Faramir has had to tell his (mid-to-late-teenage) children about the pyre.
Aie. Suicide & madness are now rather loaded for me. I'm glad now I never had any children.
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*hugs you*
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What we need is cheery Finduilas-got-better stories :)
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What we need is cheery Finduilas-got-better stories :)
I wish someone would give that a go! There are loads of "Boromir Lives!" stories, after all.
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And slash young-Denethor stories make perfect sense to me too.
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Perhaps the Finduilas Happy Ending Story has Denethor expiring?
That's sad :-(
I think I am more positive about Boromir's Stewardship than you are, particularly with Faramir as chief sidekick. What worries you about it?
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