Friends and Enemies

[wulfmann]

Some time ago I wrote a Musings for Fire & Ice that seems relevant to the current wave of rather hysterical posts here in all_heathens. Please note the subject and the content before blasting me...

Wulfy's Musings

Comments

[fluffyluggage]

I'm not going to blast you, as I myself have been bashed on a number of comms and have, frankly, left then due to said bashing. However, I happen to disagree with your last point and summary. Having spent my entire life fighting conversion and people who felt the need to save my soul, I find your opinion idealistic. I think if we lived in an idealistic world, your theory could work. But unfortunately, I'm more realistic and perhaps cynical about things due to my own experiences. I do admit to being very cynical. But it's based on past experience

[wulfmann]

I think that's the difference between us. I live in the UK and such attitudes are unusual here. However, I do think the main problem with Heathens' attitudes is the (mistaken) impression that American Christianity is somehow standard... it isn't.

You mention the good Christians out there. Well, *they're* as much at risk from these types of fundies as we are... they just don't realise it.

Having said that, I do understand your position... I'm Heathen, gay and a magic-user... so those types would burn me at the stake in a flash... :@(

[fluffyluggage]

Yes, here, they most certainly would. While I have no problem with any of those things, and actually find you quite interesting, you would completely be miserable here. In fact, you would be seriously persecuted and find it very difficult to live. Just being gay alone would be difficult, in fact. It's getting better here, but we're still not where we should be

[wulfmann]

I find your opinion idealistic

Yes, it is. But if we don't have ideals, what have we to strive for? :@)

[nashiitashii]

Thank you for saying this. You more or less expressed how I feel about the whole situation, and did it in an eloquent manner.
If we can prove to the majority of Christians that we're more like them than their Fundies are, they will side with us against them.
I admit that in college, I didn't know of any other heathens, so I associated with the local Pagan Student Association on campus and would help them with publicity, events, and education stuff, as I was a fledgling representative of Asatru. My goal when talking to curious non-Pagans was really to put forth the idea that most religions had a lot of ethical principles that they shared, and that our major ethical goals were not so different. Really, anybody curious enough to actually ask before they made hateful comments was open enough to understand what I said and actually think about it objectively afterward. A lot of getting people to understand our faith is to be able to be a friendly and non confrontational representative.

[wulfmann]

Exactly. And when they realise that we're not trying to convert them, they will relax. If we allow them to be what they are, perhaps they'll learn that we're not the enemy. Some may come over to us but that's not the main reason for talking... proving we don't have horns and a tail is *much* more important... :@)

[winterlion]

I am definitely agreeing with you

[wulfmann]

With the exception of Sikhs (I've never net one knowingly) I've found the same thing here.

Where I live the only religions represented are Christianity, Islam and possibly Taoist/Confusianist/Buddhist (the local fast food shops are run by Arabs, Turks and Chinese). Those I have known have been friendly, though I haven't really had a chance to talk religion with them.

[winterlion]

I've talked a bit with a few. Our rules of good behaviour are similar to both Sikh and Islam - and older school Christianity.
(most of the Chinese I know are Christian)

One of my ongoing fun arguments is with a Mormon gentleman (my brother's wife's brother now). He also likes to discuss theology with people of many other religions...
... in many ways I've come to the conclusion that our ways and beliefs don't actually conflict all that much. We just have a very different perspective on things.

At the end of the day, we all hold our families as sacred.

PS: I base my understanding of our own good behaviour based on the Havamal and how my Oma and Opa taught me how to behave. (same rules but briefer)

[svinfylking]

I live right across the street from a rather large mosque, and school, and in an area with a large Middle Eastern population. Not only have they never been anything but nice and polite to me, but they've seen me wearing Heathen jewelry and have never said anything untoward, etc

[heathenhulagirl]

I really need to show this to one of my kindred members who is being an ass about the local druid grove here in c-bus. *sighs*
he is very well on his way to becoming a fundytru and it is becoming a pain in my side(backside that is).

[wulfmann]

This is an open post. Feel free to show him.

What I can't figure out is, that the ones most vocal against the Christian Fundies are most like them in such ways (Ours is the Only Way)... :@(

Actually

[madisonmassage]

In my view people need to be less concern with all these subdivisions and alliances and build a freakin community. Develop groups which last, not just pop up and disappear. Create structures which function and can grow to the point of supporting the construction and maintence of sites of worship. Hell tiny christian churches in the back woods of kentucy can manage that.

All this academic b.s. distracts from the innate problem with the way many pagan religions are "practiced" these days. Everyone wants to be in a group of individuals. If you cannot agree on what you believe you're not a god damn religion your a bunch of philosophers.

Re: Actually

[wulfmann]

In my view people need to be less concern with all these subdivisions and alliances and build a freakin community.

I agree. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who seem to think that bashing other religions makes us somehow "better" than they are. This was originally written because I was sick to death of people bashing everyone instead of doing just that, building up Heathenry. However, we do need to build bridges both within Heathenry and outside.

All this academic b.s. distracts from the innate problem with the way many pagan religions are "practiced" these days. Everyone wants to be in a group of individuals. If you cannot agree on what you believe you're not a god damn religion your a bunch of philosophers.

Without the "academic b.s." would we have any way of knowing how to practice? And if your last statement is true, there is no Heathenry. When was the last time you saw any two groups of Heathens agree on anything? :@(

Re: Actually

[madisonmassage]

Yup I think you and i are on the same sheet of music. I was just a little uppity when I posted.

Spend less time worrying about "christian" opression of pagans and work more on building a lasting church/community. The problem is most pagans simply are not willing to commit to be a part of something long term. They also seem to have difficulty being part of a group which always requires some sacrifice of individuality. Most attempts at building pagan communities fail because of a lack of willingness ot sacrifice any degree of individuality. It's like saying you want to swim but don't want to get wet.

old pagan religions grew out of groups which were close knit. Tied togeather geographically and socially by economic interdependance and family ties. The religions were an outgrowth of the community, modern pagans are trying it in reverse, just not going to work.

build the community first then allow the religion to develop more naturally

Re: Actually

[fluffyluggage]

When was the last time you saw any two groups of Heathens agree on anything?

Thank you for pointing that out! I've been quite irritated lately to see so much dissention among some of the Heathen comms I've been involved in. I've been researching and trying to determine what I believe for a while. I've had some experiences that have suggested to me several different Pagan paths, and have tried to find my way. I've been so disappointed to find so much in-fighting amongst Heathens. I've left several comms due to that very thing. I'm not saying that people can't fight, but it's rampant! How is someone like me, trying to learn, supposed to feel welcome when people who are established in the community can't even figure out how to get along with one another? Urgh! *sigh*

And you wonder why I have a trust and hope issue! ;) tee-hee!