so since you emphasize how successful these religions have been/and still are who are so aggressive, does that mean you think we should be as well? That doesn't sit too well with me frankly. I agree that we should use a general term like 'heathen' when dealing with the General Public. But you are not going to get anyone to give up their culturally specific terms in dealing with their practice. And well they should not. In dealing with the public I specifically use Heathen and I encourage others to. I also try hard to weave webs of frith wherever I go as do most of the folk in my kindred(great ash)and we find that people respond well to us. For which I am grateful. I think that the mass organizations, such as the AFA the OR, the AA and even the Troth, tend to de-personalize the experience for the individual frankly. And that we always will be a faith(or many segments of faiths)that relies on interplay of the individual with one another. I do not think we should attempt conversion tactics as we don't really want someone who has to be
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No, no, I'm not suggesting that we persuade people into thinking our way. I don't think that forced conversion is the answer. What I was trying to illustrate was how Chrisitanity, who had their religious act together, overran us, just steamrolled us under because they were able to play divide and conquer games. We're in danger of being squeezed out by our own discord. Heathen works for me. It always has. What I'm seeing is that we are having trouble keeping the members we have now. I've seen many get embittered and leave the religion all together because of the bad taste in their mouth they got from the squabbling they've seen in their kindreds and lack of loyalty to their own members who took an oath with the ring. And we can't say those members are well lost. They're not. Many end up becoming embittered solitary practitioners. (and I've seen this alot.) But heathenism has to be a more hospitable place to attract members.
I think we are attracting members. My kindred is growing by leaps and bounds believe it or not. And I'm glad for it. Often I see people take a haitus for a bit, to get things together in their personal lives. And I think this is very much the way it was in times past as well. That we, as independent peoples did not brush our b.s. all over everyone else but went off to lick our wounds in private. But, I also see people return after the fact. Some people do leave for good, but that is their right and I would not stop them if I could, because that is another part of who and what we are... We give people their space. When people make decisions as adults, accepting personal responsiblity who are we to get in the way? I do know that it is a good thing to become active in our communities, to educate those around us as to who and what we are, and I think we need to do this more. I have begun to do this actually. I spoke on the NNVs at the local Pagan Pride Day this year and I may be speaking on Asatru at the local Unitarian Universalist
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I love UU churches! They are so open-minded and they welcome people who want to give speeches on different faiths. I was raised a Quaker and my uncle wanted to marry a divorced Catholic. (this was in rural Indiana in the '60's.) They compromised and married in a UU church. There is actually one right around the corner from my house that I have been circling for a couple of years. I know those guys are openminded because they have a huge rainbow stripe right over the front door.
You've put your finger on one of my few qualms, too.
Both Xianity and Islam have a conversion requirement. In both cases, belief that theirs is the Only True Religion!!!!1 is a basic tenet. We have no such tenet. We do not even have an imperative to grow. What we do have is a duty to, as you say in your response to this, make heathenry welcoming. Or I would say more simply--we have a duty to welcome people who are heathen, or considering whether heathenry is for them. Hospitality. But not conversion, not even judging ourselves by numbers.
Let the gods, and the true attractiveness of our religion, determine how big we get. (I'm constantly awed by how many are finding out about the gods, because I agree--we aren't doing a good job of getting info out there, or of being hospitable
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I honestly don't see conversion as one of the biggies in any of the older faiths. Judaism doesn't have it(you have to earn your place and study and hard work as well as initiatory rites are a must)nor does buddhism, or hinduism or a lot of the others. They wait for the individual to discover what is within themselves. So why should we as a recon religion seek others out for conversion? Not to mention I previously was Jewish so have a pretty big problem with prostylization anyway
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I'm well aware that Judaism isn't a proselytizing religion, and indeed requires would-be converts to be rejected twice. But in Xianity and Islam, it's basic, and they were the two the OP used as examples . . .
My objection to the NNV has nothing to do with McNallen; I have similar problems with the 12 Ætheling Thews, although I do like that they include givefulness and not just hospitality. They're all simplifications emulating the 10 Commandments; heathen ethics just aren't that simple. The NNV/Ætheling Thews lists are very useful in many ways; it's just they are not as much of a common rallying point as the post suggests. People use different lists, have different interpretations (in the previous post, bulwerk and I had a deep disagreement about frith, to give an obvious example), and some don't like the lists of virtues/thews at all. We have broad agreement on heathen honor--perhaps a surprising degree of agreement, considering the range of doctrinal positions within heathenry!--but considerably fewer of us could agree on a list of
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I am thinking that we should all write down our stories in a compilation book. Essays on how we came to heathenism. Our journeys. I took survey in 2000 about why people became heathen, their sexes, ages, income, education, occupation and the age when they became Asatru. I got waylaid because in December 2000 I had my daughter who turned out autistic and I have been busy raising her. But the statistics are interesting. The heathens I surveyed have above average income, above average education and many were reformed Catholics and a few Jews. Many passed through Wicca and was dissatisfied and many were agnostics and became informed believers. There is an expression that "1 informed believer is worth 1,000 blind followers."
I think the demographics may have broadened. My perception, FWIW . . . is that is an increasing disconnect between the desire for knowledge and college attendance (it's harder to get through the hoops in high school, they've been testing more and more for conformity; it's harder to get money for college and you usually have to compromise quite heftily, including studying a very practical major, to get a loan; colleges are increasingly dominated by practical degrees and faculty who teach them, and the intellectual seekers increasingly just drop out and read on their own; in particular, medieval and Germanic subjects are taught even less than they were twenty years ago, or ten years ago, so people think, why bother?) I've got used to finding out that people either didn't go to college or didn't finish (and are very well read in their own fields of interest, but lack the languages and training in written composition that college or even school should have given them); or alternatively they got a degree in business or tech, or in many
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Hmmm yaqub, I don't rememeber having seen this thread, unless it was before March 2007 sometime then I wouldn't have seen it. Wasn't around then. It would probably help me to know what your handle is on HT's elist so I could look it up. But no matter. I'll peruse the list again and hopefully find it. :-) Maybe it is something we want to rediscuss. But I agree very much with M though about discussing very personal matters on public fora. I myself am a relatively private person when it comes to that kind of stuff most times. So I don't readily disclose on a public forum. With online friends whom I've known and come to trust, yes, but not for the whole elist generally. And in terms of offering some answers to some posts that deal with heavy duty life issues, I personally find it hard to read a person's story where their pain is almost palpable. I tend to try to respond in a positive and encouraging way and show empathy and understanding. People post some of these stories for different reasons. I tend to think (perhaps
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There is actually one right around the corner from my house that I have been circling for a couple of years.
I know those guys are openminded because they have a huge rainbow stripe right over the front door.
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Both Xianity and Islam have a conversion requirement. In both cases, belief that theirs is the Only True Religion!!!!1 is a basic tenet. We have no such tenet. We do not even have an imperative to grow. What we do have is a duty to, as you say in your response to this, make heathenry welcoming. Or I would say more simply--we have a duty to welcome people who are heathen, or considering whether heathenry is for them. Hospitality. But not conversion, not even judging ourselves by numbers.
Let the gods, and the true attractiveness of our religion, determine how big we get. (I'm constantly awed by how many are finding out about the gods, because I agree--we aren't doing a good job of getting info out there, or of being hospitable ( ... )
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My objection to the NNV has nothing to do with McNallen; I have similar problems with the 12 Ætheling Thews, although I do like that they include givefulness and not just hospitality. They're all simplifications emulating the 10 Commandments; heathen ethics just aren't that simple. The NNV/Ætheling Thews lists are very useful in many ways; it's just they are not as much of a common rallying point as the post suggests. People use different lists, have different interpretations (in the previous post, bulwerk and I had a deep disagreement about frith, to give an obvious example), and some don't like the lists of virtues/thews at all. We have broad agreement on heathen honor--perhaps a surprising degree of agreement, considering the range of doctrinal positions within heathenry!--but considerably fewer of us could agree on a list of ( ... )
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There is an expression that "1 informed believer is worth 1,000 blind followers."
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