Classism and Realism

[alixtii]

There's some metafandom-ed posts about Supernatural and class, and at least one flocked post on my flist thinking about it in the abstract, and it's gotten me to revisit my thoughts, because class really does color the way I view fictional characters quite deeply. Well, maybe not class per se, since I've said things like that in the past and been

Comments

[peasant_]

Not having a penis is only a lack once you've read Lacan.

Actually for most people it is a lack the first time they are miles from the nearest loo, bursting for a pee, and there are bloody nettles everywhere.

I think that with all these things there are some statistical averages that are weighted in one direction or another - men on average have greater upper body strength, the middle classes on average are taller etc. - and it is important to know what those are and not go in a huddle of denial about them, but that it is also always irrelevant on the individual level because statistics are other people.

(edited because apparently my grammar goes out of the window on Wednesdays)

[peasant_]

Which brings up some interesting questions about the limits of the radical methodology. To what extent can one overcome real differences simply by acting as if they didn't exist? Is that a worthwhile effort or is it ultimately stacking up further problems along the line?

My instinct is to say that one should never base anything on something one knows to be untrue, but maybe occasionally by doing that you can get through to something new that would otherwise been impossible, and from there you can start to find a fairer outcome that is based on truth. Hmm. This would probably be more interesting if there were some real life examples but I don't have time to think of any.

[peasant_]

I thought of the example of Torchwood - creating a pretend world where everyone is bisexual and thus allowing the exploration of all sorts of ideas beyond what is normally possible when portraying minority sexualities. However I think it is important that that is fiction. I suspect the pretence of equality where research is telling us there is no equality is best confined to fiction. That gives the best of both worlds - sticking with reality and the challenges it presents in the real world, whilst allowing fictional worlds to imagine the unrealistic and maybe find new solutions in the process.

[alixtii]

I think you're right on here.

[mefan]

Jumping in here from metafandom . . .

I've always thought the Torchwood example re: this was weak at best. Not so much b/c it's not a fictional ideal - it is, I agree w/you there - but b/c I think it could be argued that the characters' tendencies to disregard sexual orientation may have more to do w/their line of work than any deeply ingrained sense that they have been bisexual all along or have those leanings. Once you throw aliens into the mix (not to mention Jack Harkness), terms such as 'hetrosexual', 'bisexual', 'homosexual', etc. become a bit redundant, I think.

Also, I do think it's interesting to note that in both Gwen's case w/Cerys and Tosh's w/Mary, both Cerys and Mary were also aliens (well Cerys was human, but possessed by an alien) and that may/may not have had something to do w/it. They certainly seem reluctant to fully explore the homosexual/bisexual dynamic outside Jack and Ianto and that has been reduced to nothing more than them being shown having it off in the hub for a laugh.

[peasant_]

I think it is a bit like them having a pet pterodactyl - it works best as just a thing that is part of the story, not as something one analyses too closely. I know that as a bisexual I find it relaxing to have an imaginary world where everyone is bisexual, but yes, the illusion does break down if examined up close. Hence I tend just not to examine it :oD I think fiction can achieve useful things that way. I'm not sure if RTD knows that he has created a 'safe haven' for sexual minorities, or if he feels an obligation to preserve it by how he treats the Jack/Ianto relationship. He probably is aware because he seems very conscious of fan reactions, but he may not feel any obligation towards the situation. I have heard him comment on the burden of a writer having to represent any minority he happens to belong to, so he may feel he wants to break the requirement. It is after all rather a restriction on any writer to have to service their audience's socio-political expectations, he would probably rather concentrate on such minor matters as

[dv8nation]

As much as I like Torchwood, the fact that *everyone* seems to be bi just makes me think "Aren't they pandering just a bit here?"

[executrix]

But if Captain Jack is doing the recruting, I can imagine all the heterosexuals' CVs going directly into the bin.

[dv8nation]

Warning: The Torchwood Institute is NOT an equal opportunity employer.

[peasant_]

I think they probably were pandering in the first season. Which was fun if you happened to be one of the people being pandered to! But yes, it doesn't make much logical sense - like so much in Torchwood.

[dv8nation]

That's part of what bugs me. Torchwood has very smart writing most of the time. So they really don't need to pander.

coming in late from metafandom

[miriam_heddy]

One way to read that as not pandering is to assume a sort of Adrienne Rich reading, wherein Jack's created a climate of non-compulsory heterosexuality, which allows all of his people to explore their identity (sexual and otherwise), at will, in a work environment that essentially encompasses their non-work environment as well (as Gwen's learned, TW people are never off the clock).

Re: coming in late from metafandom

[dv8nation]

Or it could just be the writers playing up "Sex sells."

Re: coming in late from metafandom

[alixtii]

Well, the two explanations work on different levels; the extra-diegetic Doylist explanation doesn't deny the diegetic Watsonian reading--or the need for the Watsonian reading, either. And the Watsonian explanations tend to be richer and more interesting, in my experience.

Re: coming in late from metafandom

[dv8nation]

I like good ol' Occam's Razar.

Re: coming in late from metafandom

[alixtii]

But if invoking the author when looking for an in-universe explanation counts as a least hypothesis, then the answer to all questions of science should be "God say so" or some such. The point isn't that one type of explanation is better than the other, but that they explain different things, and having one doesn't eliminate the need for the other.