** thinks ** I think the difference Katniss/people coming back from the front for me is:
1) that Katniss' "front" doesn't feel real for me (at all - We already discussed the worldbuilding). It is some kind of make-up made-believe situation, which is for me, sorry - NOT REAL FRONT. To compare with ASOIAF: there I feel the danger and the stress and the horror. In Hunger Games, forgive me, but the descriptions of beautiful dresses Katniss had to wear and gorgeous food she had to eat are described much more vividly than her "Horrors". So for me? Not REAL FRONT. :D
2) Everyone around her came from the same situation, so they also are having PSTD. Why is no-one else having tantrums and a bad case of cluelessness?
3) PTSD doesn't explain as to why Katniss is so clueless/oblivious/blind. As the person below commented "it's always delicate when the only narrator is a bit blind and unaware of what goes on around her (and you, the reader, are perfectly aware of how oblivious she can be, which is intensely irritating)"
4) PSTD doesn't explain why she is so selfish. We might be of different opinion but for me selfishness = weakness. If I do dislike something realy strongly it is selfishness.
Plus, don't misunderstand my meaning. I don't dislike Katniss. She is just a fictional charcter. I dislike the author who picked one female charcter out of them all and turned her into this jelly-like mess when all the male characters seem to be coping with their dose of horror just fine (in the same circumstances)? I haven't read so far, but I bet Peeta will be un-brainwashed pretty quickly and will turn into the same hero-like perfect Peeta. I BET ON IT.
This is my main problem with the trilogy - I have seen it hailed as "feminist fiction", where in reality it is not. It is the same old story with teenage stereotypes : "teenage girls are weak, they throw tantrums, they have no brains, they are all about themselves etc. etc." . STEREOTYPES.
PS: I have to say "I am sorry" (just in case) because I feel really quite angry about Katniss' charcter development in this trilogy. I might say/do things that are not entirely rational, and this very rarely happens to me. But I feel real anger towards Collins: Katniss had such a great potential, and turning her into a teenage stereotype si baaaaaaaaaad! :D
1) I disagree, but that's not really the point. So whatever.
2) No they didn't. The only other person who has been through the same thing is Finnick. OH AND HE IS ALSO DEALING WITH PTSD. Finnick is having trouble coping too, just like Katniss. She's not just whining about unimportant things. She's actually seriously not well. She's hiding in closets not because she's trying to shirk responsibilities but because she's not able to cope.
3) I'm not 100% sure what you're specifically referring to her, but I think that part of this is the Harry Potter Problem.
4) I REALLY don't get what you mean when you call her selfish. Katniss is struggling with her own demons right now and she should be allowed to.
And I don't think it's so much that Collins chose a female character out of all of them and turned her into a jelly-like mess because a) UM FINNICK? (who is actually the only character who has had an experience analogous to Katniss) and b) we're only really seeing Katniss's experiences because she's the main character and is the narrator of the story so obviously she is going to be the only character whose head we're in.
I think reading this article might explain why I think Katniss is an important feminist character. Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed.
I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.
2) Finnck's case is not the same as Katniss - wasn't he almost killed by the force field ? So in his case - he has come back from the clinical death? The same goes for Peeta who came back from the clinical death at least once,and was injured, and was brainwashed. I bet we won't hear any complaining from Peeta. And to be honest, I don't rememebr any complaining from Finick either.
3) What is HArry Potter Problem?
4) Always thinking about herself, even in situation when she is watching Peeta being tortured she thinks exactly "MYYYYYYY heart is breaking", not "Poor Peeta". .. I ask you - WHAT DEMONS???? Everyone was protecting her in the second games and she doesn't even say "thank you" to Haymitch, Finick, Joanna, etc.
I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.
In the worst possible sense:
1)"Teenage princess" stereotype: tantrums, etc. I can't believe it for a minute that all the girls are prone to tantrums and are only interested in dresses!
2) let me give you an example. I go to my daughter's school the other day and I look at the math display and I see a perl of "all the numbers are gone.. to boys school" (or something like this) . I am sick and tired of people implying that females are somehow inherently stupider than males. Sick and Tired (sorry, I am still on the high horse). So when everyone around Katniss (Peeta, Gale) seem to easy understand wheat is going on and she seems to be so clueless - stereotype.
2) I don't recall Finnick suffering clinical death. But Finnick, much like Katniss, has detached from reality. He sits around tying knots in ropes because he can't cope with what he's gone through and the knowledge that Annie has been taken by the Capitol. Katniss hides in closets to escape from her reality. Katniss has been through a lot of horrific experiences in both of the games. I won't comment on any of the Peeta stuff because well, you haven't finished the book, so yeah.
3) HP is told from a limited POV (Harry's POV) and sometimes it's annoying because the reader has clearly figured something out, but the author needs the POV character to remain oblivious to it in order to further the plot or keep the tension or whatever.
4) Her heart is breaking because of her feelings for Peeta. I don't see how that is selfish. Katniss HAS been through a lot. She had the weight of the world on her shoulders. She's been used as a pawn by the Capitol in the first book. Then again in the 2nd book (but with the added bonus of being used by a pawn again by Haymitch and co as they use her but don't keep her in the loop), and now is being used by the rebels. Added to this is fighting for her life in the Games.
Yeah, I think you are reading the text completely wrong in the last two points you make. That isn't what is going on. What examples can you specifically think of in the text where Katniss is clueless? I can't think of any.
2) I have just read it and yes, Finick did suffer clinical death. So - his problems are of other kind (his brain is fried up?) .
3) Oh yes, I see what you mean. But in HG the annoying part is that everyone (Gale, Peeta) seem to be able to figure things out, but not Katniss (hence - gender stereotypes). To tell you the truth, I think one non-stereotyped female in the series is Katniss' sister. But I am sure Prim is going to die (to make Katniss suffer), and most likely Gale will be involved. This is just exactly the type of story Collins will go for, something so stereotypical.
4) Well, you see, when someone in the middle of someone else's torture thinks about herself and HER pain only - For me this is selfish! And all that "Blah blah blah, I am used by rebels" stuff is even more annoying because, of course, they are using her because she is so naive and will definitely throw a tantrum if she is told the truth!
No, you are reading it wrong. :D Clueless? For example, everyone in the rebel camp seem to know what is going on? Apart from Katniss? Or simple things like her favourite phrase "OH WHY HE IS DOING THIS?" about Peeta (Haymitch, Finick,Joanna, etc. etc.) ? Where it is pretty obvious to everyone else (Haymitch, Peeta, etc.) the person in question is doing this?
I thought that I have to let you know that I object to statements "I think you are reading the text completely wrong" on principle. :D because I am sure if I am entitled to something, this something is at least my opinions about fictional characters. :D
And of course, you are entitled to yours too! but I object to the idea that your or mine opinions can be somehow more valid.. I thought I have to say this.. :D
Is Katniss interested in dresses, though? I thought the dresses/clothing she wore served a purpose and somewhat determined her role in the games. During the pre-Games events, Katniss's clothes-Peeta's, too-served to establish her presence within the games and gather the attention of the viewers. When Katniss interviewed with Caesar Flickman, her moments of "Look at my pretty dress. *twirls*" were due to Cinna's coaching. Then, after Katniss and Peeta won the first Games, Cinna had Katniss wear a demure dress in her interview to portray her as a young schoolgirl in love, instead of a young woman who defied the Gamemakers.
The same can be said for the second Games, where Katniss goes on about her pretty wedding dress. Again, that act was due to Cinna's coaching and played upon the audience's emotional investment in the tributes. She's not the only one who did that, either. Each tribute, in his/her interview, appealed to the audience's emotions-can't Snow do something about the games, since you all love us so much?, etc. Katniss's approach was through her dress, because the Capital citizens were all about fashion, but she (through Cinna) turned the wedding dress into a defiant symbol of rebellion.
In Mockingjay, the emphasis on clothes is only to show how functional Cinna made them so she could play her role in the rebellion. Additionally, in the books (I can't remember which one. Catching Fire, I think.), Katniss says she's thankful her "talent" as a tribute is dressmaking, because it's something Cinna could do on her behalf. That doesn't sound like she's interested in dresses to me. Just the opposite, in fact.
I don't think Katniss is stereotypically stupid, either. I agree that Katniss's lack of emotional insight can be annoying at times, but she's a girl who spent her life ensuring her family's survival, and she didn't have a lot of time to analyze her feelings or others' motives. As for her distrusting Finnick/Johanna/the other tributes in CF, I don't blame her. The truth is that she had, again, one goal: Peeta's survival. She was single-minded in her approach, and trying to accomplish her goal in the arena didn't allow for much introspection, especially when you consider the point of the Games is for the tributes to murder one another. As she said, whatever moment of solidarity the tributes had on the pre-Games interview show disappeared the moment the buzzer sounded.
Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues. And nobody would let her rest. I know you don't think Katniss suffered more than anyone else; it doesn't matter if she had it better or worse than others, because her pain was still valid. She did suffer from being in the Hunger Games twice, and that's not something I'd expect her to analyze in a, "Look. Peeta/Haymitch/Finnick/etc. were in the Games and they survived, too. I guess I shouldn't complain" way.
I agree with fauxkaren: instead of allowing her to emotionally, mentally, and physically heal, she's become yet another pawn in Coin's/Haymitch's/Plutarch's games. I can't fault her for not being able to decide who to trust, what the ultimate goal is, or others' motives.
I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone or invalidating a different opinion. I just wanted to add my perspective, because I love Katniss and think she's definitely one of the stronger women I've read in fiction lately.
The descriptions of dresses and outfits were too lengthy, too detailed, too loving, and too MATERIALISTIC. I found them to be very hypocritical because in the same book the author is trying to criticize materialism.
I thought Katniss was "not really stupid" at first, but in Mockinjay I was practically rolling my eyes.
Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues.
BUT HE SAVED HER LIFE (and not just for the rebel cause). Well, this is what I mean about "clueless" - how would she not see that the plan would have never worked if she knew! Because, let's face it, she is so naive there was no chance for her to be able to hide anything (or not to start throwing tantrums).
But in seriousness, this series is such a terrible case of broken expectations for me that I honestly am all just "grgrgrgrgrgrgrgr" and other incoherent stuff. It started so well and disintegrated into such a mess! And I am not even talking about problems with worldbulding and narrative. Or with the fact that Collins "borrowed" so much from various sources. I am just raging about the "murder" of Katniss' character in this post.
Hmm, I am afraid you misunderstand my meaning. What I mean is: the way I read it, Collins is so much in love with the numerous, abundant and beautiful descriptions (there are so many of them it seems as if I am reading a fashion magazine) of Cinna's dresses that this clashes with her attempt to criticise materialism . This smells of hypocrisy.
and think she's definitely one of the stronger women I've read in fiction lately.
You see, this is the PROBLEM. If she is one of the strongest, what about the others? When even the strongest woman is still weaker than a man (Peeta, for example)?
Wow. It seems I missed the fireworks. Since others have already shared it, I was also disappointed by katniss' character arc. While I agree EVERYONE (not just girls) is entitled to their feelings and it is always valid but books so frequently show the female characters being extremely emotional. I loved early katniss because she was different. She showed so much courage and strength when she was so young. It's hard to enjoy her falling apart, regardless of how realistic that may seem.
Lots of fans of "PTSD katniss" talk about how tired they are of she-roes. Are there really that many? And wasn't she more of a she-ro at 14 than she is now? (shakes head) Ok, she is bound to feel trauma from being in the arena twice. But I agree with you alexandral, others aren't hiding in closets. Sure they all have their crosses to bear but they appear to be handling it better. Again, the girl of the story isn't managing as well.
Her actions in district 13 makes me question how she did so much in the first books. I do believe we all have our breaking points and I guess it was all just too much for katniss. Even if all the others managed to pull through. That's the part that pisses me off about katniss. She's the only one hiding in the closet.
I also agree she's been horribly manipulated by the capital but goodness hasn't everyone who entered the arena or had a member of their family enter it? She started off so amazing and now she's so broken. So yes Collins, we get it. Life sucks.
"Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed."
This is impossible. We live in society, so everyone's feelings are affected by those around us. People whose feelings aren't affected/judged/merited by other people - aren't they called sociopaths? Are you saying Katniss is a sociopath? Surely this is a mistake!
Did you read the article that I linked because that is not what I meant at ALL, and I honestly have no idea where you got that from what I said. My statement will probably make more sense in context of the article.
I am too agry/annoyed to read the article, I will not give anything too much justice. I might read it again one day (when I cool down) or I might not because really - it is not as if the book has too much value anyways..
1) that Katniss' "front" doesn't feel real for me (at all - We already discussed the worldbuilding). It is some kind of make-up made-believe situation, which is for me, sorry - NOT REAL FRONT. To compare with ASOIAF: there I feel the danger and the stress and the horror. In Hunger Games, forgive me, but the descriptions of beautiful dresses Katniss had to wear and gorgeous food she had to eat are described much more vividly than her "Horrors". So for me? Not REAL FRONT. :D
2) Everyone around her came from the same situation, so they also are having PSTD. Why is no-one else having tantrums and a bad case of cluelessness?
3) PTSD doesn't explain as to why Katniss is so clueless/oblivious/blind. As the person below commented "it's always delicate when the only narrator is a bit blind and unaware of what goes on around her (and you, the reader, are perfectly aware of how oblivious she can be, which is intensely irritating)"
4) PSTD doesn't explain why she is so selfish. We might be of different opinion but for me selfishness = weakness. If I do dislike something realy strongly it is selfishness.
Plus, don't misunderstand my meaning. I don't dislike Katniss. She is just a fictional charcter. I dislike the author who picked one female charcter out of them all and turned her into this jelly-like mess when all the male characters seem to be coping with their dose of horror just fine (in the same circumstances)? I haven't read so far, but I bet Peeta will be un-brainwashed pretty quickly and will turn into the same hero-like perfect Peeta. I BET ON IT.
This is my main problem with the trilogy - I have seen it hailed as "feminist fiction", where in reality it is not. It is the same old story with teenage stereotypes : "teenage girls are weak, they throw tantrums, they have no brains, they are all about themselves etc. etc." . STEREOTYPES.
PS: I have to say "I am sorry" (just in case) because I feel really quite angry about Katniss' charcter development in this trilogy. I might say/do things that are not entirely rational, and this very rarely happens to me. But I feel real anger towards Collins: Katniss had such a great potential, and turning her into a teenage stereotype si baaaaaaaaaad! :D
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2) No they didn't. The only other person who has been through the same thing is Finnick. OH AND HE IS ALSO DEALING WITH PTSD. Finnick is having trouble coping too, just like Katniss. She's not just whining about unimportant things. She's actually seriously not well. She's hiding in closets not because she's trying to shirk responsibilities but because she's not able to cope.
3) I'm not 100% sure what you're specifically referring to her, but I think that part of this is the Harry Potter Problem.
4) I REALLY don't get what you mean when you call her selfish. Katniss is struggling with her own demons right now and she should be allowed to.
And I don't think it's so much that Collins chose a female character out of all of them and turned her into a jelly-like mess because a) UM FINNICK? (who is actually the only character who has had an experience analogous to Katniss) and b) we're only really seeing Katniss's experiences because she's the main character and is the narrator of the story so obviously she is going to be the only character whose head we're in.
I think reading this article might explain why I think Katniss is an important feminist character. Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed.
I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.
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3) What is HArry Potter Problem?
4) Always thinking about herself, even in situation when she is watching Peeta being tortured she thinks exactly "MYYYYYYY heart is breaking", not "Poor Peeta". .. I ask you - WHAT DEMONS???? Everyone was protecting her in the second games and she doesn't even say "thank you" to Haymitch, Finick, Joanna, etc.
I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.
In the worst possible sense:
1)"Teenage princess" stereotype: tantrums, etc. I can't believe it for a minute that all the girls are prone to tantrums and are only interested in dresses!
2) let me give you an example. I go to my daughter's school the other day and I look at the math display and I see a perl of "all the numbers are gone.. to boys school" (or something like this) . I am sick and tired of people implying that females are somehow inherently stupider than males. Sick and Tired (sorry, I am still on the high horse). So when everyone around Katniss (Peeta, Gale) seem to easy understand wheat is going on and she seems to be so clueless - stereotype.
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3) HP is told from a limited POV (Harry's POV) and sometimes it's annoying because the reader has clearly figured something out, but the author needs the POV character to remain oblivious to it in order to further the plot or keep the tension or whatever.
4) Her heart is breaking because of her feelings for Peeta. I don't see how that is selfish. Katniss HAS been through a lot. She had the weight of the world on her shoulders. She's been used as a pawn by the Capitol in the first book. Then again in the 2nd book (but with the added bonus of being used by a pawn again by Haymitch and co as they use her but don't keep her in the loop), and now is being used by the rebels. Added to this is fighting for her life in the Games.
Yeah, I think you are reading the text completely wrong in the last two points you make. That isn't what is going on. What examples can you specifically think of in the text where Katniss is clueless? I can't think of any.
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3) Oh yes, I see what you mean. But in HG the annoying part is that everyone (Gale, Peeta) seem to be able to figure things out, but not Katniss (hence - gender stereotypes). To tell you the truth, I think one non-stereotyped female in the series is Katniss' sister. But I am sure Prim is going to die (to make Katniss suffer), and most likely Gale will be involved. This is just exactly the type of story Collins will go for, something so stereotypical.
4) Well, you see, when someone in the middle of someone else's torture thinks about herself and HER pain only - For me this is selfish! And all that "Blah blah blah, I am used by rebels" stuff is even more annoying because, of course, they are using her because she is so naive and will definitely throw a tantrum if she is told the truth!
No, you are reading it wrong. :D Clueless? For example, everyone in the rebel camp seem to know what is going on? Apart from Katniss? Or simple things like her favourite phrase "OH WHY HE IS DOING THIS?" about Peeta (Haymitch, Finick,Joanna, etc. etc.) ? Where it is pretty obvious to everyone else (Haymitch, Peeta, etc.) the person in question is doing this?
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And of course, you are entitled to yours too! but I object to the idea that your or mine opinions can be somehow more valid.. I thought I have to say this.. :D
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Is Katniss interested in dresses, though? I thought the dresses/clothing she wore served a purpose and somewhat determined her role in the games. During the pre-Games events, Katniss's clothes-Peeta's, too-served to establish her presence within the games and gather the attention of the viewers. When Katniss interviewed with Caesar Flickman, her moments of "Look at my pretty dress. *twirls*" were due to Cinna's coaching. Then, after Katniss and Peeta won the first Games, Cinna had Katniss wear a demure dress in her interview to portray her as a young schoolgirl in love, instead of a young woman who defied the Gamemakers.
The same can be said for the second Games, where Katniss goes on about her pretty wedding dress. Again, that act was due to Cinna's coaching and played upon the audience's emotional investment in the tributes. She's not the only one who did that, either. Each tribute, in his/her interview, appealed to the audience's emotions-can't Snow do something about the games, since you all love us so much?, etc. Katniss's approach was through her dress, because the Capital citizens were all about fashion, but she (through Cinna) turned the wedding dress into a defiant symbol of rebellion.
In Mockingjay, the emphasis on clothes is only to show how functional Cinna made them so she could play her role in the rebellion. Additionally, in the books (I can't remember which one. Catching Fire, I think.), Katniss says she's thankful her "talent" as a tribute is dressmaking, because it's something Cinna could do on her behalf. That doesn't sound like she's interested in dresses to me. Just the opposite, in fact.
I don't think Katniss is stereotypically stupid, either. I agree that Katniss's lack of emotional insight can be annoying at times, but she's a girl who spent her life ensuring her family's survival, and she didn't have a lot of time to analyze her feelings or others' motives. As for her distrusting Finnick/Johanna/the other tributes in CF, I don't blame her. The truth is that she had, again, one goal: Peeta's survival. She was single-minded in her approach, and trying to accomplish her goal in the arena didn't allow for much introspection, especially when you consider the point of the Games is for the tributes to murder one another. As she said, whatever moment of solidarity the tributes had on the pre-Games interview show disappeared the moment the buzzer sounded.
Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues. And nobody would let her rest. I know you don't think Katniss suffered more than anyone else; it doesn't matter if she had it better or worse than others, because her pain was still valid. She did suffer from being in the Hunger Games twice, and that's not something I'd expect her to analyze in a, "Look. Peeta/Haymitch/Finnick/etc. were in the Games and they survived, too. I guess I shouldn't complain" way.
I agree with fauxkaren: instead of allowing her to emotionally, mentally, and physically heal, she's become yet another pawn in Coin's/Haymitch's/Plutarch's games. I can't fault her for not being able to decide who to trust, what the ultimate goal is, or others' motives.
I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone or invalidating a different opinion. I just wanted to add my perspective, because I love Katniss and think she's definitely one of the stronger women I've read in fiction lately.
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I thought Katniss was "not really stupid" at first, but in Mockinjay I was practically rolling my eyes.
Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues.
BUT HE SAVED HER LIFE (and not just for the rebel cause). Well, this is what I mean about "clueless" - how would she not see that the plan would have never worked if she knew! Because, let's face it, she is so naive there was no chance for her to be able to hide anything (or not to start throwing tantrums).
But in seriousness, this series is such a terrible case of broken expectations for me that I honestly am all just "grgrgrgrgrgrgrgr" and other incoherent stuff. It started so well and disintegrated into such a mess! And I am not even talking about problems with worldbulding and narrative. Or with the fact that Collins "borrowed" so much from various sources. I am just raging about the "murder" of Katniss' character in this post.
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You see, this is the PROBLEM. If she is one of the strongest, what about the others? When even the strongest woman is still weaker than a man (Peeta, for example)?
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Lots of fans of "PTSD katniss" talk about how tired they are of she-roes. Are there really that many? And wasn't she more of a she-ro at 14 than she is now? (shakes head) Ok, she is bound to feel trauma from being in the arena twice. But I agree with you alexandral, others aren't hiding in closets. Sure they all have their crosses to bear but they appear to be handling it better. Again, the girl of the story isn't managing as well.
Her actions in district 13 makes me question how she did so much in the first books. I do believe we all have our breaking points and I guess it was all just too much for katniss. Even if all the others managed to pull through. That's the part that pisses me off about katniss. She's the only one hiding in the closet.
I also agree she's been horribly manipulated by the capital but goodness hasn't everyone who entered the arena or had a member of their family enter it? She started off so amazing and now she's so broken. So yes Collins, we get it. Life sucks.
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Also re: she-ros. I hate the term. I have always worked in a male-oriented field myself and I want more ladies doing more "male-oriented" stuff.
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"Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed."
This is impossible. We live in society, so everyone's feelings are affected by those around us. People whose feelings aren't affected/judged/merited by other people - aren't they called sociopaths? Are you saying Katniss is a sociopath? Surely this is a mistake!
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