A dance with Dragons: part 2 of 3.

[alexandral]

The North remembers

A Dance with Dragons continues to be uneven, but for me this might become my favourite book in the series. The biggest (and the most interesting) part of ADWD takes place in the North, and I love it (the snowstorms, the Northern gods, and all).

Comments

[linndechir]

I WILL HAVE FREY WITH ANYTHING!!!! Manderly FTW. Let's hope Stannis will recognise how awesome that man is, instead of just bitching at him for being fat. We know that you hate food, Stannis, and are apparently offended by the vera idea of eating, but don't judge Manderly. ;)

One small interesting thing is that Dany, from the very beginning, seems to like to attach herself to something or someone: Viserys, Drogo, prophesies, slaves and finds it hard to find her own path.
You're making a very good point here. I don't think I ever quite realised that, but it's the bottom line of one of the biggest problems I have with her. I mean, in a way, it's understandable. Daenerys is very young, she never had a real home or any family other than her brother (whom she lost when she was, what, 13?). It's only normal that she is desperately looking for some sort of constant, steady thing in her life. But to me it's also one of the main issues I have with Daenerys: she doesn't ... huh, I don't know how to say this. We have a beautiful phrase in German that literally means "to be calm in oneself". It means that you know who you are, and you're okay with who you are, you're a steady personality. Daenerys is nothing like that. She wavers, she doesn't really have much of a defined personality, she generally wants to be queen, and she wants to be powerful, and she wants everyone to love her, but she has no idea what she REALLY wants, what she really thinks is important and right. So she clings on to certain people, and to certain ideas ("I'm the rightful queen of Westeros"), and to prophecies etc. I think that's one of her hugest weaknesses, and I don't think she will be able to overcome that any time soon.
Insert usual rant on why Stannis is so much more awesome.

I agree with you on all the amazing new side characters. And Jon and Stannis should become BFFs and kick everyone's arse together. It would be my perfect ending at the moment.

[alexandral]

I agree with you on Dany, but I am beginning to feel that Martin just doesn't seem to know what to do with her character, hence her wavering and the lack of personality. I never felt this in the previous books, but ADWD's Dany is so flat, she is not even two-dimensional. Who is she? What she wants? I have no idea and I have almost finished reading the book! Some of the characters that barely have a line in the book are better defined than Dany.

What I am trying to say is that it is not Dany's fault, it is all Martin's fault. :D

On Stannis: I forgotten to mention that making everyone and their horse move forward for several weeks in a snow storm is a feat in itself, I cheered for Stannis there. I so hope he is not dead at the end of this.

[linndechir]

To be honest, thinking back of her in the earlier books, I'm realising that she never had much of a personality. It just never bothered me all that much before.

Stannis is the biggest badass in this entire series. I mean, seriously? "We're gonna go to Winterfell to take it back because the Northerners are badass and I want them by my side?" You go, Stannis. If he doesn't win this damn war I will personally strangle GRRM. ;) I'm just afraid that Stannis will fuck it all up with his lack of people skills, i.e. by pissing Manderly off. :/

[alexandral]

Yes, few of my friends said in the past how they find Dany's chapters not so interesting and her character not so engaging, but I always responded " But THE DRAGONS"? I guess, the Dragons were the main appeal for me... But in ADWD, the Dragons hardly do anything (I am so angry with Martin for teasing) . By now, I would have expected Dany to train them or something. People train lions and tigers and dragons. :D It is possible if you train them from the young age. Ok, I rant again. I think that general lack of dragons in the book that is called "A Dance with dragons" is frustrating for me.

An the idea of taking Winterfell wasn't all that mad anyways, not in the circumstances: Melisandre did a good job of sending Mance Rayder to work behind the enemy lines, and Manderley is ready to stab all the Freys in the back. I really wonder what is going to go wrong here.

And yes, I will be angry with Martin too - he teases us so much! Even the iron bank of Bravoos is ready to give money to Stannis!

[linndechir]

Yep, she had the dragons, and that was it. that's generally my issue with House Targaryen ... they have dragons, and that's why everyone thinks they're cool. But dragons is really the only thing they have.

I'm fairly sure Stannis is not dead yet (because otherwise the whole Iron Bank thing, the Manderly plot etc. would have made no sense at all), but I'm fairly sure King Stannis is not Martin's endgame. And that just makes me ridiculously sad.

[alexandral]

I love some of the stories of old Taragaryens, before they became crazy (marrying your relatives is never good for your gene pool) . My current crush is Bloodraven.

yes, I am so sad to agree, but I am sure Stannis is not going to be The King at the end. I do have a tiny hope that Davos practicality wins and Stannis will "bend the knee" and be the lead of Baratheons. I don't like the idea of one of Robert's illegitimate children becoming the head of the house.

[linndechir]

I really liked Baelor Breakspear when I read the first Dunk&Egg novel. He seemed like a cool guy. But I guess even the worst families have a few cool guys. ;)

Tbh, I'd rather see Stannis dead than bend the knee to Daenerys, of all people. oO 'cos ... yeah, I don't think I could stomach that.

[alexandral]

I like all the stories about Aegon I and his sisters..

Speaking of possibilities his seat used to be Dragonstone, so Melisandre's stone dragons must be true, methinks. What is Stannis manages to wake them up?

I DO NOT WANT STANNIS DEAD. But more I read of ADWD, more I think Stannis would have been good as king.

** sigh ** As far as ADWD goes, Dany is probably the most incapable ruler in the Universe. I did (sort of, there was not much material there) liked Aegon boy. he just seemed much more grounded. So my plan now is for him to rule, with her as his queen.

[linndechir]

Stannis with a stone dragon would be kind of epic. And with all the theories about him turning dark side and becoming the Night King II, or about Jon becoming the Night King II ... it would be kind of cool if they BOTH turned dark side together. ;) Nah, I just want Stannis and Jon to spend more time together.

Aegon seems like a good kid, but I'd be kind of disappointed if the series ended with a minor character on the throne, someone we don't really care about all that much. And I just don't like Targaryens.

I have this looong AU in my head, my happy!AU in which Stannis becomes king. Except that Aegon only comes to Westeros after Stannis became king, and realises that starting another war to gain the throne would completely destroy the realm. So he decides to take the black after explaining to Griff that he's doing what's right for the kingdom. Yeah, my wishful thinking, it's everywhere. Also, Jon/Aegon is kind of cool. ^^

[alexandral]

I kind of always thought that the stone dragons thing was true - Dragonstone was the seat of Aegon the Conqueror. And I always thought that Melisandre was right about the royal blood - Dany sacrificed royal blood (Drogo) to hatch her own dragons.

I want Jon to become something more interesting, even Night King II will do. Sadly, after several year of obsessing, I am getting tired with Azor Ahai idea - I would rather that the humans managed to sort their problems by themselves, with dragons or no dragons. BUT NO MAGIC SWORDS. But I think the Azor Ahai legend will turn out to be one of those prophesies that are not straightforward.

Hmm, I agree with you on Aegon to some extent - if he is to be THE KING, why has he just appeared. But there are 2 buts here: 1) Aegon was actually mentioned n the very first book (even in the first chaper, I think) , 2) He will definitely need to team up with Dany . I think Martin (no matter what we want) wants Dany for the Queen.

More I thin about it, more I want Stannis as Lord Commander fighting The Others for real, and WITHOUT AZOR AHAI magic povers (interestingly, this will make him Azor Ahai).

[linndechir]

Stone dragons would be somehow awesome. And stone would fit Stannis so much. <3

I think Jon got such a typical hero storyline, I think the best plot twist for him would really be that he's just some normal guy who got sent to the Night's Watch and ended up with tons of responsibility. No AA, no nothing. I'm cool with the magic swords, I just don't want any secret super targaryens around who will save the world because they're so much more awesome than normal people. -.- No idea what to make of the whole Night Kind II idea. Tbh, I'm shallow, I just want more Stannis&Jon. ;)

Daenerys as queen will be the biggest letdown of the entire series. :( It will seriously ruin the ending for me, no matter how it happens. :(

I want Stannis to be Azor Ahai, but without magic powers. But I can't see him as LC, although I could imagine GRRM going there. I just can't imagine a realistic scenario in which Stannis would agree to take the black. He'd rather die.

[alexandral]

Yep, Stannis+stone=will be a great combination.

Night King? In serious, I don't think there will be another one. Why do you think there will be?

I want more Davos&Stannis. But Davos is going to be far away now, in Skagos **sigh**. OTOH, it would be nice to have him as father figure for Rickon.

Dan: I am just judging by the only completed book of Martin I have read, "Fevre Dream". It ends with the prophesies fulfilled (admittedly, in a strange way) and the main guy becoming the Vampire Leader. I think dany is singled for it , but yes - I rather Westeros sorted itself out.

I also can't see Stannis taking black, unless he will believe the new King will be the real king. May be he won't take the black, but will be just the Commander of human forces up North?

[linndechir]

It's not that I think there will be another Night King, it's just that so many people in fandom seem to think that. Apparently lots of people assume that one of the characters we know will go dark side, and unless it's Daenerys (which would be epic, but unlikely) most people seem to think it's either Jon (to subvert the hero trope) or Stannis (whose morals already seem questionable to many people, who wants to make the Nightfort his castle etc.). I don't like the idea of Stannis turning dark side because it would feel somewhat obvious (the rough, dark, unloved guy must turn out to be evil blabla), but it seems to be a very popular idea in fandom.
Personally, I don't think anything could beat the narrative genius of Daenerys, set up as the big heroine and saviour from book one, turning out to be the biggest threat to Westeros.

I just don't see any reason why Stannis would take the black. Even if for some reason he would accept a different king (and why would he? He's Robert's heir, and he accepted Robert as his king while rebelling against Aerys - suddenly changing his mind and putting the claim of Aerys' hair over the claim of Robert's heir would make no sense), he would still be the rightful heir to Storm's End. So no reason for him to take the black. Stannis is also not the kind of man to save his life by taking the black if the alternative is execution. He'd rather die than give up what is rightfully his.
I can see him leading armies against the Others, though, together with Jon. That would just be awesome. And Stannis on a stone dragon vs. Daenerys on her dragon y/y? I'm back to wishful thinking now.

[alexandral]

Oh, I see. I don't think I am a supporter of the idea. The interesting thing is that Martin doesn't portray all characters equally objectively. I am sure he is doing it "on purpose, but it is interesting to watch how this makes fans support some characters and dislike te others. Martin is the player of games!

For example, Stannis (and Melisandre) are definitely portrayed more negatively, and Dany more positively. If you take the sum of Dany's actions and the sum of actions of someone like Stannis (or Melisandre) - Dany would probably appear as the biggest baddie. Imagine the story of Mirri Maz Duur told from her own POV, from the start as a peaceful healer in a peaceful village to the point of being burnt alive?

Sorry, I got sidetracked a little, what I meant to say is that I don't think Stannis will turn evil. But I don't think too many fans like Stannis, so there is quite a bit of mistrust towards him.

And neither do I think Jon or Dany will become evil, or anyone else who is not evil already. Processing everything I read of Martin's, I think he likes to torture and kill his characters - if ASOIAF will be anything like Fevre Dream, EVERYONE will die, with only 2-3 of the main characters left. There were literally 3 guys left at the beginning of the last chapter of Fevre dream (I spoil no further) - and what a great m/m OTP that book has, have you read Fevre Dream? At the same time Martin is keen on redemption stories and not keen on stories where his characters become completely broken and/or evil. It might be that Jon or Dany will go though bad times, but they will either die or come back stronger. I am sure this is the rule of Martin's game.

But yes, I am with you on Stannis and the possibility of him taking the black.

I just want someone else but Dany to hatch some other dragons. I REALLY WANT it more than anything else at the moment, I am so disappointed with Dany. I will be fine if Stannis or Aegon or anyone else manages to do it.

[linndechir]

The interesting thing is that Martin doesn't portray all characters equally objectively.
You make a really good point here. Daenerys really gets the most positive depiction of all characters, also because we see her from her POV. I don't get people who hate on Mirri Maz Duur, because from HER point of view, what she did made perfectly sense. Who wouldn't want revenge on the man who burnt her village and killed her friends?
Stannis, on the other hand, is seen by everyone in a rather negative light. He's hard to like, and you can only appreciate him if you look past the surface, and most characters don't do that. So it makes sense that he's less well liked by fans.

I can see the possibility of Stannis turning "evil", because he has a history of making morally questionable decisions for what he considers is right. But I still think it would be a bit too cliché, and one of the "heroes" turning bad would be much cooler.

Ah, but GRRm likes his redemption stories for the people who are depicted as bad in the beginning. Theon, Jaime, Sandor ... I'm not sure that the people who turn worse during the series will get a redemption arc.

I haven't read Fevre Dream. What exactly is it about?

I don't really like the dragons, so I'm not sure I want more of them, but if that's the only way Stannis can stop Daenerys, okay, stone dragons it is. Though I have trouble imagining Stannis on a dragon. I'd rather have him go dragonslayer on her dragons. ^^ I want Davos to bring Stannis a unicorn from Skagos. ;)

[alexandral]

Yes, Mirri Maaz Duur - I confess I used to view her as villain-only, and for a while. I think only after the show I started viewing her as persona, and immediately noticed some problems in Dany's story - if anyone, Dany should have blamed herself for what has happened.

You see, my point is that I don't remember anyone who turned bad in the series or other MArtin's books, not really. The baddies were bad from the start.

Fevre dream is Martin's take on Vampire Fiction. This genre is so overused , but still, martin manages to write a very original story. May be because the story is not quite about Vampires, it is more about characters. I loved the book, and many of my friends liked it too. In the middle of the story there is a duo of unlikely friends - a human guy Abner (another take on Davos) and a vampire Joshua (who could have been Stannis if Stannis was beautiful and good with people - Joshua is really ready to stand up for what he believes in). I shipped those two like no tomorrow.

I want more of Aegon and Jon C. because I loved Rhaegar so much (he is my favourite Targaryen - I can't say I hate them for I like Rhaegar so much).

If anyone can smuggle a unicorn out of Skagos, it will be davos.