3-Re: apogee of illusionpigshitpoetJuly 1 2020, 01:06:52 UTC
it's funny. when i was a kid i could sing all the ad jingles from tv commercials by heart or learned the words to pop songs from repetitious play on top forty radio, mainstream stuff, and so that is social conditioning. then i rebelled against all that mainstream when i went to art school, looking for eclectic, cult and avant garde, outside the box thinkers. that's when i felt like a man without a country. nobody with whom to easily associate, unless i talked news and politics or carpentry. i also wrote about this back then. that which was familiar. i've been writing journals of sorts for the past 25 years
anyway, what i'm getting at, is that there's the big picture and the expansive thinkers and philosophers, whom i envy and admire, but there are also the self-contained local practitioners of photographers, writers, musicians, artists, who are out there doing it, much like you are on your blog. i think both are relevant, the big picture and the (blues and) abstract truth, as oliver nelson once put it.
orwell seems to be on many minds today with the global narratives under authoritarian globalist collusion, which doesn't give a rat's ass about grassroots living. i see them as the predators, like vultures preying on the misfortunes of we the living. without creators, there is no content. once the commodities are used up, it's back to the wheel to gather more.
the real work is being done by people like you and me and anyone who has the will to create or express truth rather than just to consume and raid the resources of others. there's a big distinction between cut&paste and real original free expression. with all our social conditioning, it's sometimes difficult to see through the cult and find the freedom in living. i have a joke about plagiarizing the world. it's like pinky and the brain. cut&paste everything for repurposing, synthesis and concatenating.
i hope more people can break free of this victim guilt fear agenda we are living and flourish from themselves, to help make the world a brighter place with a positive future for next generations.
i mean, we got this far, it would be a shame to blow it all to hell now, wouldn't it? some poor mutherfuckers want to do exactly that.
not me. live and let live! peace out, ; )
even LJ has bloody word restrictions..
that which is not censored will be made manifest..
Re: 3-Re: apogee of illusionalexanderscttbJuly 1 2020, 13:48:30 UTC
I’m very much in agreement with you here. The kind of social conditioning that you speak of is very real. It’s also very controversial to speak of it, for no less than the fact that it’s power comes from it’s very invisibility, the plausible deniability of its existence. It’s again the power of convincing people that “freedom is slavery.” I believe George Monbiot has said, “the most powerful ideologies never announce themselves as ideologies. That is where their power lies.” Once you see through a certain illusion, it’s nearly impossible to go on seeing things in the old way. The genie can’t go back in the bottle. For this reason I’m optimistic that the control society in its presence form will fall, leaving nothing behind but a “sneer of cold command […] Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,” to quote Shelley. But we must also make it fall. And what is the best way to counter the illusions of a control society, the Society of the Spectacle? As you mentioned, through the power of individual artists, writers, photographers, musicians, philosophers, activists, revolutionaries, et al., banding together in collectivities with as many others as they can who dare to envision a brighter future.
RE: social conditioningpigshitpoetJuly 2 2020, 18:15:28 UTC
[ it’s power comes from it’s very invisibility, ] - that is very well stated
i call it zietgeist, but i'm not sure that the correct use of it
us old romantics keep wanting to put the genie back and return to the old ways, but i know how that works if we keep expecting the same things, how will anything ever change?
“sneer of cold command […] - i like that. it says much about little, that's how authoritarians get away with it, bullying
what were your favourite pieces by shelley?
here is something intriguing...
Rousseau relates seeing a form brighter than the sun, “A Shape all light,” a female form reminiscent of intellectual beauty and other ideal manifestations having to do with the poet’s creative powers. In the hopes of quenching his thirst for knowledge, Rousseau accepts a drink from the cup offered by the Shape, but the effect is to eclipse his vision of the Shape with the vision of a “cold bright car,” the same chariot leading the pageant of life, whereby Rousseau loses sight of the ideal.
In one of those ironic twists of fate that seem to bring literature and life together, near the end of the poem the poet Shelley asks Rousseau, “Then what is Life?”
one might see that process as our spectacle, our wonderment of the unseen become seen, the unknown happily discovered.
the pre-raphaelites, the impressionists including music, the romantic writers, all benefited from their exchange of ideals, or at least, ideas..
i think that's what helped make them great.
[ banding together in collectivities with as many others as they can who dare to envision a brighter future ] you got that right. co-create. we are more together than we are separate. i like discussion groups, like writer's clubs, or art communities, for that very reason.. ; )
Re: social conditioningalexanderscttbJuly 3 2020, 14:22:25 UTC
I remember not hating but not exactly loving English either in school, but can remember the day specifically that I first read “Ozymandias.” For some reason it was the first time I really connected with literature that was “old.” Later I had to take a class on Romanticism in college where we focused on Keats and Shelley. The professor preferred Keats probably because of how he was apolitical-especially compared to Shelley-and I found myself needing to frequently come to the defense of Shelley in that class. I became very impressed with Shelley at that point, making it my goal to try to read everything he ever wrote. This would be the most in depth I’d ever gotten with an old-timey poet. I’m still not finished with this goal, but I do have to admit that “Prometheus Unbound” really is a masterpiece. “Queen Mab” is also good. His short one “Mutability” is great. I also like the sonnet “England in 1819,” not to mention “The Mask of Anarchy” and the short one “What men gain fairly.” I still have much to read by him. And in fact when I went to write that sonnet, “It Sure Gets Around,” I spent the day studying sonnets by Shelley to get some music in my head. . .
The anecdote you bring up about Rousseau is quite interesting. I’m suddenly reminded of Shelley’s philosophical world view, which very much has a Platonic base to it. Shelley’s idealism in this way has much in common with Plato, although one place where they differ starkly is in their political visions. The more I think about it, the more it seems it might bear some similarity to the way they conceived of a figure called the Demiurge. Plato saw the Demiurge as the architect of the universe, the Forms are said to flow from this Creator God. Plato finds the divine order of the Logos that emanates from the Demiurge to be the highest ideal to which the great one should try to attain. In the end it becomes an elitist view, whereby there’s a preordained hierarchy of individuals at the top who are Philosopher Kings, set apart from the unenlightened masses. On the contrary Shelley was atheistic in a spiritual way that reminds me of a Buddhist vision. This deeply informs his politics. For example, from what I understand in classical England, a charge of atheism was often comparable to a charge of treason, as it was in a way, a refusal to submit to the divine authority of the monarch. Shelley’s atheism in my view thus represents an individualistic revolt against hierarchical authority, in favor of a more radical democracy that’s something similar to modern anarchism. This is a very limited speculation though, as I can’t say I’m at all an authority on Plato or Shelley (although I hope someday, I may achieve the kind of understanding of Shelley that’s in keeping with my goal).
Re: social conditioningpigshitpoetJuly 4 2020, 07:48:33 UTC
ok now you just made my other day
i got more out of what you just said than all the shelley and plato i have read.. i thank you handsomely for this insight
about the demiurge, does that qualify plato as a gnostic? are you familiar with the sophia creation myth? it sounds like what you just described with plato. and yes logos.. which makes me think of genesis in the bible the book of john opes with = "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - john 1:1
shelley and byron seemed like rebellious rock stars in their time, revolting against as you say, authority.. romantic idealists much as the psychedelic movement was back in the 60s and 70s. but with the practical hippie, i fear they may have lost traction for more frugal forms of living, back to the land, on a commune, might as well just surrender to stalin.. or mao. the rebellious movement interested me much in art school. i saw parallels in it to the time in which i grew up
you've prompted me to look into this further, it's as relevant now as it seemed then.. thanks you rebellious spirit! ; )
Re: social conditioningalexanderscttbJuly 4 2020, 15:45:24 UTC
Of course! Again I feel very honored.
To answer your question, I feel like this qualifies Plato as a kind of proto-Gnostic. I say that too because I believe the Gnostics proper were also in their way Neo-Platonists. I’m not super well versed in this topic though, so I’m largely speculating. In terms of the Sophia creation myth I’d like to know more of it. I know that Sophia means “wisdom,” but that is basically the extent of what I know about that.
Haha, and I fully agree with what you said about Byron and Shelley. In fact I see those figures and Romanticism more broadly as really prefiguring the counterculture movement of the 1960s. I see a kind of unity through time for these perspectives (and I also hope that said unity can carry forward into this present moment, and on into the future). Also because I agree that I feel like this movement, as it manifested in the hippie movement, did veer off course. A lot of those ideals were lost. Much of it became degraded through a spiritually materialist drug culture, or a new “ethical” form of consumption in capitalism, or the apolitical, Brave New World like qualities of New Age. This is kind of from my perspective as I look back on it, as since I didn’t live through this, I was very much intrigued by all of it and spent many years (and in fact, I still do) with trying to understand those times and perhaps in some way, to find a way to participate in a kind of revival of them, in a stronger, and more capable form!
Talking with you really brings a lot of this preoccupation out, so I truly value it! Cheers to you!
anyway, what i'm getting at, is that there's the big picture and the expansive thinkers and philosophers, whom i envy and admire, but there are also the self-contained local practitioners of photographers, writers, musicians, artists, who are out there doing it, much like you are on your blog. i think both are relevant, the big picture and the (blues and) abstract truth, as oliver nelson once put it.
orwell seems to be on many minds today with the global narratives under authoritarian globalist collusion, which doesn't give a rat's ass about grassroots living. i see them as the predators, like vultures preying on the misfortunes of we the living. without creators, there is no content. once the commodities are used up, it's back to the wheel to gather more.
the real work is being done by people like you and me and anyone who has the will to create or express truth rather than just to consume and raid the resources of others. there's a big distinction between cut&paste and real original free expression. with all our social conditioning, it's sometimes difficult to see through the cult and find the freedom in living. i have a joke about plagiarizing the world. it's like pinky and the brain. cut&paste everything for repurposing, synthesis and concatenating.
i hope more people can break free of this victim guilt fear agenda we are living and flourish from themselves, to help make the world a brighter place with a positive future for next generations.
i mean, we got this far, it would be a shame to blow it all to hell now, wouldn't it?
some poor mutherfuckers want to do exactly that.
not me. live and let live!
peace out,
; )
even LJ has bloody word restrictions..
that which is not censored will be made manifest..
ha-hah!
Reply
Reply
i call it zietgeist, but i'm not sure that the correct use of it
us old romantics keep wanting to put the genie back and return to the old ways, but i know how that works
if we keep expecting the same things, how will anything ever change?
“sneer of cold command […] - i like that. it says much about little, that's how authoritarians get away with it, bullying
what were your favourite pieces by shelley?
here is something intriguing...
Rousseau relates seeing a form brighter than the sun, “A Shape all light,” a female form reminiscent of intellectual beauty and other ideal manifestations having to do with the poet’s creative powers. In the hopes of quenching his thirst for knowledge, Rousseau accepts a drink from the cup offered by the Shape, but the effect is to eclipse his vision of the Shape with the vision of a “cold bright car,” the same chariot leading the pageant of life, whereby Rousseau loses sight of the ideal.
In one of those ironic twists of fate that seem to bring literature and life together, near the end of the poem the poet Shelley asks Rousseau, “Then what is Life?”
one might see that process as our spectacle, our wonderment of the unseen become seen, the unknown happily discovered.
the pre-raphaelites, the impressionists including music, the romantic writers, all benefited from their exchange of ideals, or at least, ideas..
i think that's what helped make them great.
[ banding together in collectivities with as many others as they can who dare to envision a brighter future ]
you got that right. co-create. we are more together than we are separate. i like discussion groups, like writer's clubs, or art communities, for that very reason..
; )
Reply
I’m still not finished with this goal, but I do have to admit that “Prometheus Unbound” really is a masterpiece. “Queen Mab” is also good. His short one “Mutability” is great. I also like the sonnet “England in 1819,” not to mention “The Mask of Anarchy” and the short one “What men gain fairly.”
I still have much to read by him. And in fact when I went to write that sonnet, “It Sure Gets Around,” I spent the day studying sonnets by Shelley to get some music in my head. . .
The anecdote you bring up about Rousseau is quite interesting. I’m suddenly reminded of Shelley’s philosophical world view, which very much has a Platonic base to it. Shelley’s idealism in this way has much in common with Plato, although one place where they differ starkly is in their political visions.
The more I think about it, the more it seems it might bear some similarity to the way they conceived of a figure called the Demiurge. Plato saw the Demiurge as the architect of the universe, the Forms are said to flow from this Creator God. Plato finds the divine order of the Logos that emanates from the Demiurge to be the highest ideal to which the great one should try to attain. In the end it becomes an elitist view, whereby there’s a preordained hierarchy of individuals at the top who are Philosopher Kings, set apart from the unenlightened masses.
On the contrary Shelley was atheistic in a spiritual way that reminds me of a Buddhist vision. This deeply informs his politics. For example, from what I understand in classical England, a charge of atheism was often comparable to a charge of treason, as it was in a way, a refusal to submit to the divine authority of the monarch. Shelley’s atheism in my view thus represents an individualistic revolt against hierarchical authority, in favor of a more radical democracy that’s something similar to modern anarchism.
This is a very limited speculation though, as I can’t say I’m at all an authority on Plato or Shelley (although I hope someday, I may achieve the kind of understanding of Shelley that’s in keeping with my goal).
Reply
now you just made my other day
i got more out of what you just said than all the shelley and plato i have read..
i thank you handsomely for this insight
about the demiurge, does that qualify plato as a gnostic? are you familiar with the sophia creation myth? it sounds like what you just described with plato. and yes logos.. which makes me think of genesis in the bible the book of john opes with = "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - john 1:1
shelley and byron seemed like rebellious rock stars in their time, revolting against as you say, authority.. romantic idealists much as the psychedelic movement was back in the 60s and 70s. but with the practical hippie, i fear they may have lost traction for more frugal forms of living, back to the land, on a commune, might as well just surrender to stalin.. or mao. the rebellious movement interested me much in art school. i saw parallels in it to the time in which i grew up
you've prompted me to look into this further, it's as relevant now as it seemed then..
thanks you rebellious spirit!
; )
Reply
To answer your question, I feel like this qualifies Plato as a kind of proto-Gnostic. I say that too because I believe the Gnostics proper were also in their way Neo-Platonists.
I’m not super well versed in this topic though, so I’m largely speculating.
In terms of the Sophia creation myth I’d like to know more of it. I know that Sophia means “wisdom,” but that is basically the extent of what I know about that.
Haha, and I fully agree with what you said about Byron and Shelley. In fact I see those figures and Romanticism more broadly as really prefiguring the counterculture movement of the 1960s. I see a kind of unity through time for these perspectives (and I also hope that said unity can carry forward into this present moment, and on into the future).
Also because I agree that I feel like this movement, as it manifested in the hippie movement, did veer off course. A lot of those ideals were lost. Much of it became degraded through a spiritually materialist drug culture, or a new “ethical” form of consumption in capitalism, or the apolitical, Brave New World like qualities of New Age.
This is kind of from my perspective as I look back on it, as since I didn’t live through this, I was very much intrigued by all of it and spent many years (and in fact, I still do) with trying to understand those times and perhaps in some way, to find a way to participate in a kind of revival of them, in a stronger, and more capable form!
Talking with you really brings a lot of this preoccupation out, so I truly value it!
Cheers to you!
Reply
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