First slash: Jesus/Judas

[alena_hu]

Thank you for the lovely encouragement.

Title: The Man That Clothes Me
Summary: God the Father plays a trick on both Jesus and Judas.
Pairing: Jesus/Judas
Notes: Partially inspired by the 2000 version of Jesus Christ Superstar. The main plot point is inspired by the pseudoepigraphical Gospel of Barnabas, together with a few Gnostic ideas. The

Comments

[spes_unica]

[Sorry about all these edits!]
I think it still says Jesus was the Son of God

No, that's what it apparently says he wasn't! Hence my confusion, but of course your version makes sense as it is in any case!

A propos of hanging - did I ever send you my music essentials mp3 compilation - I have a feeling I did! - check out Gesualdo's setting of Responsory 4 in the first night section - I think it's merely "track 04" but it is actually also the fourth track. The words ought to be:
Responsory
Amicus meus osculi me tradidit signo: quem osculatus fuero, ipse est, tenete eum: hoc malum fecit signum, qui per osculum adimplevit homicidum: Infelix praetermisit pretium sanguinis, et in fine laqueo se suspendit.
Verse
Bonum erat ei, si natus non fuisset homo ille.

Transl. Responsory
My friend betrayed me by the token of a kiss: whom I shall kiss, that is he, hold him fast: that was the wicked token which he gave, who by a kiss accomplished murder: unhappy man, he relinquished the price of blood, and in the end hanged himself.
Verse
It had been good for that man, if he had never been born.

And see how beautifully he soars up on "se suspendit" which is part of the repeat section.

My idea was--sort of, I'm no theologian, obviously--is that God had Judas crucified (and sent to Hell) both in punishment for the sin of betraying Jesus, and paradoxically, also in expiation of all mankind's sins (as a representative). It was planned all along.

No, that idea you got across very well, I got that! Ineffable plans and all that (>> Gaiman/Pratchett: Good Omens). JCSuperstar:
"You're far too keen on where and how, and not so hot on why". Tim Rice rules.

that whole Harrowing of Hell business

Oooh, check out the Gesualdo setting for the descent into hell for your inspiration! (This is a different ensemble (Ensamble Vocal Européen) from the Hilliard I sent you (where it's track 26 or responsorium 8 in the III Nocturno section) and these use women sopranos I believe, hence a higher starting tone which means less deep bass rumblings than you get from Hilliard on "lacu" and "mortuos"; there is some general disagreement over accidentals in a lot of Gesualdo stuff and this youtube version uses a flat option for the (rather wishy-washyly performed, I must say) second tone of the descending scale on "liber". I prefer the sharp these days. Um, talk about babbling. ;-) )

Don't worry, I haven't read all of Paradise Lost either, only the bits that are relevant for Melville's satanic Claggart. It's carterhaugh who is your expert in the Milton department.

[alena_hu]

No, that's what it apparently says he wasn't!

Ah, my bad, then! That's what one gets for only scanning the information in the must cursory manner before speaking, I guess.

And see how beautifully he soars up on "se suspendit" which is part of the repeat section.

You did indeed send me the compilation! And I just took out the Gesualdo disks and listened to the Amicus meus part. Yes, indeed I see what you mean about the beautiful soaring, and I have to say it's giving me ideas about crucifixing and hanging and other acts of love. Then I wanted to look up the Hanged Man card in Tarot, then I saw (just on Wikipedia) that it's also called the Traitor in older decks...

Oooh, check out the Gesualdo setting for the descent into hell for your inspiration!

Thanks so much for this! It is inspirational indeed. I'm not so great at talking about the musical points, as you know, but I especially loved the starting section and the "inter mortuos". The text, needless to say, is pretty much perfect for what I'm hoping to imagine. And now I'm going back to listen to the whole Hillard version again... ;)

[spes_unica]

Ah, good job you have the music, I thought for a moment yesterday that my memory'd played me a trick and that I'd sent you something else! (Usually remember sending *coff* stuff like that overseas for the stress it causes me in case I get nicked for it...)

Gesualdo, though odd (see readme.txt on CD) really is best in terms of word/music painting here; I checked out Victoria's setting of this responsory (the only setting of "Amicus meus" on youtube) and it's frankly boring apart from the empty fifths on "suspendit" (>> no thirds means no telling whether this is a major or minor chord, but that's probably a too-modern approach since a lot of stuff at that time ends on empty fifths, but usually for a reason nevertheless).
Yeeess, the opening "Aestimatus sum" is a popular musical "icon" which has been used e.g. in that excellent radioplay "Marlowe's Diaries" which I keep pimping around. Have fun with the Hilliard who, although they do scream somewhat occasionally, have the advantage of the "rumblier" deeper setting.

I think one of my favourites in the third set is the "Ecce quomodo moritur iustus", but with the Tallis Scholars rather than with Hilliard.

[spes_unica]

Two things:
1. just did a bit of comparative listening between Hilliard Ensemble and Tallis Scholars, and for heaven's sake go and get the Tallis Scholars' recording (unfortunately not the complete settings only the third section (Saturday) ) - I now feel that the way Hilliard do it is pretty dreadful in parts, and the beauty of the "Ecce quomodo" for instance doesn't come out there at all! The "Jerusalem" from that CD is up on youtube - just so you can hear the difference... those Hilliard counters really get more and more dreadful to listen to what with all these really amazing quality high male voices we get these days. There is a King's Singers recording of the Thursday set; I'm not so sure about one of their tenor voices so haven't bought it. Better than Hilliard it seems to me these days.

2. of course the breaking of Hell is in the Sabbato Sancto section too; I'm afraid finding more lyrics is surprisingly difficult (they are on the CDs of course, only not the one I sent you obviously) - don't know how good your Latin is, ummm... quickly type those up:

Resp.4: Recessit pastor noster, fons aquae vitae, ad cuius transitum sol obscuratus est:
Nam et ille captus est qui captivum tenebat (!!! very beautiful caesura in Tallis Scholars version) primum hominem: hodie portas mortis et seras pariter Salvator noster disrupit.
V.: Destruxit quidem claustra inferni et subvertit potentias diaboli

Our shepherd, the fountain of living water, is gone, at whose departure the sun was darkened: For now even he is taken captive who held the first man captive: this day our Saviour broke open both the bolts and the gates of death.
He destroyed the dungeons of hell, and overthrew the powers of the devil.

Hoping this will be inspiration for your sequel,
yours sincerely,
Music!nut spes

[alena_hu]

Gesualdo, though odd (see readme.txt on CD) really is best in terms of word/music painting here

Y'know, I was just listening to the Hilliard version of Amicus meus again, actually a couple of times, and I also looked up Victoria's setting on youtube, and I definitely have to agree with you there...I'm probably prejudiced by my own current weird Judas fangirlism, though. Perhaps in my mind, with something that deals with the relationship between Jesus and Judas, something, it feels like one needs something less conventional? (Or maybe I'm partially also falling prey to the usual angst-ridden mental image of Gesualdo.) For myself, I'm also finding just those two words, amicus meus, quite striking. And that "suspendit": I'm starting to read all sorts of crazy significance into it.

for heaven's sake go and get the Tallis Scholars' recording

Ooh! Thank you for telling me about this! I just made the order on Amazon.

don't know how good your Latin is, ummm... quickly type those up:

My Latin is rusty--or rather mostly consists of rust (from 2 years in high school). Thanks so much for typing this responsory for me, especially this line:

now even he is taken captive who held the first man captive

I'm more than ever feeling my utter deficiencies in these things--I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the finer points of Christianity. Not to claim that my intentions for this fic are anywhere near Christian, but I definitely wanted to invoke the human side of things more than divine will and whatnot.

Hoping this will be inspiration for your sequel,

Oh, it is very, very inspirational indeed! I am now kicking myself a little for not thinking of Gesualdo myself...Of course I cannot say that I understand the musical points, but it does seem to me--and my very layperson's point of view--that he certainly is remarkable at the music/word painting, as you said, and to me it seems very much a painting of human anguish, while yet pointing to something else more mysterious happening just beyond...(Sorry if that's somewhat simple-minded. ;))

[spes_unica]

So glad you're getting the Tallis Scholars recording - it's my current mental frame of reference for the Saturday responsories, I noticed that when I was listening to Hilliard, I was missing a lot of my auditory "touchstones" (e.g. the slight slowing-down on "qui captivum tenebat" which you will hopefully be hearing soon). It's a pity they don't seem to have recorded Thursday and Friday.
It seems unbelievable that Victoria and Gesualdo should have been contemporaries, doesn't it? But (apart from the fact that he's definitely looking forward into the 17th century and baroque word-painting) Gesualdo's musical weirdness is notorious - he breaks all the rules of orthodox musical setting and produces harmonic relations that you then don't really find again till Wagner.
Don't you worry about musical laicism though - I myself consider myself barely qualified to talk about musical setting technique and its laws. Never mind that I studied the subject, we never got any training beyond what I'd already learned at school; I don't know the nomenclature and I do no more than basic analysis of Britten and even there I'm deciphering rather than reading, and I stay clear of discussions of tonality. The proper musicians among my friends (particularly the Church musicians, but also some "laymen") are on a level of understanding that I'll never attain there - they can recognise parallel fifths (a very basic mistake) at a mere glance, whereas I usually don't notice when I produce them in counterpoint and so on.

I'm probably prejudiced by my own current weird Judas fangirlism

I'm already quite giddy by vicarious association! Plus, of course, Gesualdo. :-))) *hugs you*

I only learned Latin for a year at uni to get the mandatory certificate; my grammar is ok-ish (as long as future tense is not involved) but I don't have a great vocabulary.

especially this line:
now even he is taken captive who held the first man captive

Tee hee, thought you might find that to your taste...! :-) It's one of my favourites as well.
:-))))))))))))))

[alena_hu]

Sorry I haven't replied to this earlier--I've actually been on a trip this week.

It's a pity they don't seem to have recorded Thursday and Friday.

Oh, indeed! I haven't received the Saturday set yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. I definitely wished they'd have done all three days.

Gesualdo's musical weirdness

I know what you mean, completely; he's definitely very... different. One could argue that unlike other musicians of his time, he didn't have to worry about things like patrons and the like, but still, it takes a certain kind of mind to come up with the kind of things he did.

Tee hee, thought you might find that to your taste...! :-)

Ah, you know me rather well there, I think... ;)

[spes_unica]

No worries, I'm used to slow conversations!

Lack of patrons is a rather better theory than incompetence (which I believe was advanced at one point but may be wrong) - he's too good for that.

:-)))