The Subtext I See - Heaven and Earth

[aingeal8c]

I love this episode. Hamlet reference FTW! It's also oozing subtext. Which is nice.

Heaven and Earth

Fraser feels the need to confess to Ray about Francesca’s appearance in his apartment at the end of The Deal.

They’re walking closely together in the corridor.

Comments

[cherry_lozenge]

The Fraser/Francesca/Ray issue was always just brimming with innuendo. Especially Ray's talk with Francesca after his admission to Fraser that he'd want Fraser to sleep with his baby sister. Does he really trust Fraser to do that or was he just saying it because he was in denial? What of his speech to Francesca? Why warn her off of Fraser if he accepted Fraser sleeping with her?

And does some of that over protectiveness for Frannie veer into himself as well? Guys like Fraser don't sleep with girls like Frannie, but do they sleep with Vecchios at all? What about Frannie's reply to Ray? What dream is Ray so afraid to reach out for? We see that he's not reluctant about hitting on girls, so is Frannie still talking about Fraser? Is she saying that just because Ray's too scare to try for Fraser doesn't mean she has to be?

While most likely the writers weren't thinking along those lines when writing those lines, probably in hopes of establishing personality differences between the Vecchio siblings, the scene doesn't really close itself to a slashy interpretation. Especially when Fraser is eavesdropping. I love the imagery of him and Ray being a wall apart, with Fraser looking in and being aware of the intrafamily dynamics and the way Ray was reacting, but Ray was completely blind to Fraser's stalking of him. In a way, it's a metaphor for Fraser's changing perception of Ray and Francesca (what that perception is, you decide) and Ray being completely oblivious of the fact.

[aingeal8c]

The Fraser/Francesca/Ray issue was always just brimming with innuendo. Especially Ray's talk with Francesca after his admission to Fraser that he'd want Fraser to sleep with his baby sister. Does he really trust Fraser to do that or was he just saying it because he was in denial? What of his speech to Francesca? Why warn her off of Fraser if he accepted Fraser sleeping with her?

I agree. I think Ray said if I wanted anyone to sleep with my sister I’d want it to be you is almost saying - tell me I'm not going to be angry with you if you did. I think he is trying to get Fraser to tell him one way or the other. At the same time is Ray also saying - If I wanted anyone to sleep with me I’d want it to be you? Is he trying to make out he wouldn’t mind that either?

But yeah he's warning Francesca without knowing if she did. Of course we're pretty sure she didn’t (and here's thought in the Southbound documentary it was stated she didn’t - hmmm canon?) but Ray doesn’t know. I think even if she did he doesn’t want to be repeated.

And does some of that over protectiveness for Frannie veer into himself as well? Guys like Fraser don't sleep with girls like Frannie, but do they sleep with Vecchios at all? What about Frannie's reply to Ray? What dream is Ray so afraid to reach out for? We see that he's not reluctant about hitting on girls, so is Frannie still talking about Fraser? Is she saying that just because Ray's too scare to try for Fraser doesn't mean she has to be?

I always read it as partly Francesca going - we know you’re not afraid to chase women but when it comes to what you really want you too scared. She even says Ray if he doesn’t reach for his dream will get old and die alone. She clearly doesn’t think he’s going to get married (again though of course we don’t know that at this point) so it’s not women she could be talking about. There is only one person she could really be referring to - Fraser. Francesca even asks if it would matter to him if she did sleep with Fraser. That’s pretty clear stuff.

While most likely the writers weren't thinking along those lines when writing those lines, probably in hopes of establishing personality differences between the Vecchio siblings, the scene doesn't really close itself to a slashy interpretation. Especially when Fraser is eavesdropping. I love the imagery of him and Ray being a wall apart, with Fraser looking in and being aware of the intrafamily dynamics and the way Ray was reacting, but Ray was completely blind to Fraser's stalking of him. In a way, it's a metaphor for Fraser's changing perception of Ray and Francesca (what that perception is, you decide) and Ray being completely oblivious of the fact.

Yes and it is let's be honest out of character for Fraser to so blatantly eavesdrop. It’s not a chance thing either. He is quite clearly eavesdropping by choice, he presses the button to hear what's going on - no way is that accidental. And he seems very interesting in seeing how Ray and Francesca interact as if he wants to understand that. I honestly wonder if before this he realised how important Ray knowing was and that there was more than one reason Ray wanted to know.

[cherry_lozenge]

At the same time is Ray also saying - If I wanted anyone to sleep with me I’d want it to be you? Is he trying to make out he wouldn’t mind that either?

The line was so heavy with innuendo that I couldn't refrain from interpreting it that way. Either I was watching it with slash-colored glasses or Benny is just denser than a rock. I tend toward the second option.

Of course we're pretty sure she didn’t (and here's thought in the Southbound documentary it was stated she didn’t - hmmm canon?) but Ray doesn’t know. I think even if she did he doesn’t want to be repeated.

I always assumed that Frannie didn't get a chance to sleep with Benny. For one, Fraser was banged up enough that I don't think even he could've gotten himself up for Frannie's advances. For two, Fraser doesn't strike me as the type of person who does one night stands, and if he made a mistake, I think he might try to make an honest woman out of Frannie. For three, I'm not sure Fraser's capable of getting it up for any other woman other than Victoria at this time. We know he's a bit of a single minded doofus when it comes to loving, so I doubt he was interested in anyone else because he was so convinced he's in love with Victoria.

I always read it as partly Francesca going - we know you’re not afraid to chase women but when it comes to what you really want you too scared. She even says Ray if he doesn’t reach for his dream will get old and die alone. She clearly doesn’t think he’s going to get married (again though of course we don’t know that at this point) so it’s not women she could be talking about. There is only one person she could really be referring to - Fraser. Francesca even asks if it would matter to him if she did sleep with Fraser. That’s pretty clear stuff.

I do think that Frannie is also referring to Ray lacking confidence in himself to reach for big goals, like climbing up higher in the ranks or chasing down a woman he loved. Because we know while Ray is a flirt, he also tends to let the people he love go rather than tie them down, again, due to his lack of confidence in himself. Of course, it's just too easy to believe she's referring to Fraser, because Fraser is the one who they've been talking about the entire time. And of course, when it comes to Fraser, Ray does lack confidence when Fraser is the one who seems to be making all the connections or noticing absurd details. When Ray mentioned Fraser as "guys like him", one gotta wonder if Ray doesn't think Fraser is too good for himself.

Yes and it is let's be honest out of character for Fraser to so blatantly eavesdrop. It’s not a chance thing either. He is quite clearly eavesdropping by choice, he presses the button to hear what's going on - no way is that accidental. And he seems very interesting in seeing how Ray and Francesca interact as if he wants to understand that. I honestly wonder if before this he realised how important Ray knowing was and that there was more than one reason Ray wanted to know.

Fraser does eavesdrop if he thinks it's in the name of truth, justice, and maintaining the right. But, for Fraser to eaves drop on Ray, which is quite deliberate as you've amply proved, seems to go against everything that Fraser was brought up to believe. I want to know what drove Fraser to do something like that, and to cover it up and keep silent about it when he couldn't on the issue of Francesca. How does his conscience deal with accepting eavesdropping but not accidental seduction? I always wondered what Ray would do if he'd caught Fraser listening in, especially since we know that Ray's pretty big on privacy.

[aingeal8c]

The line was so heavy with innuendo that I couldn't refrain from interpreting it that way. Either I was watching it with slash-colored glasses or Benny is just denser than a rock. I tend toward the second option.

I tend more toward the latter too really.

I always assumed that Frannie didn't get a chance to sleep with Benny. For one, Fraser was banged up enough that I don't think even he could've gotten himself up for Frannie's advances. For two, Fraser doesn't strike me as the type of person who does one night stands, and if he made a mistake, I think he might try to make an honest woman out of Frannie. For three, I'm not sure Fraser's capable of getting it up for any other woman other than Victoria at this time. We know he's a bit of a single minded doofus when it comes to loving, so I doubt he was interested in anyone else because he was so convinced he's in love with Victoria.

I have to say I find slashfic set just after The Deal (after Francesca has left etc) where Fraser and Ray engage in full anal sex a tad unrealistic given how hurt Fraser's ribs are. I don't think he'd be up to much at all. He's clearly in pain.

And I would agree I think it just wouldn't work for him he's more scared than aroused. And it does the beg the question can he get it up for nay woman other than Victoria at all? Is the fact he's so convinced he's in love with her the reason the sexual desire follows?

And I think Francesca herself practically admits she didn't - Would it matter to you if I did? She doesn't say had she says did as in the future she wants to but hasn't yet. Of course now rethinking that it;s highly possible she meant I did...ack.

I do think that Frannie is also referring to Ray lacking confidence in himself to reach for big goals, like climbing up higher in the ranks or chasing down a woman he loved. Because we know while Ray is a flirt, he also tends to let the people he love go rather than tie them down, again, due to his lack of confidence in himself. Of course, it's just too easy to believe she's referring to Fraser, because Fraser is the one who they've been talking about the entire time. And of course, when it comes to Fraser, Ray does lack confidence when Fraser is the one who seems to be making all the connections or noticing absurd details. When Ray mentioned Fraser as "guys like him", one gotta wonder if Ray doesn't think Fraser is too good for himself.

That's a good point Ray does lack self confidence in himself and his abilitiies. It's odd but it's Ray who recognises mroe abut the relationship he has with Fraser than Fraser does. Strange that ina way. But yes considering Fraser has been the focus of the conversation it's easy to assume it's him. Frannie has seen Ray not follow through on things all his life. I do think the 'am I good enough for him?' part enters into it too. Ray is almost saying Francesca isn't good enough either.

Fraser does eavesdrop if he thinks it's in the name of truth, justice, and maintaining the right. But, for Fraser to eaves drop on Ray, which is quite deliberate as you've amply proved, seems to go against everything that Fraser was brought up to believe. I want to know what drove Fraser to do something like that, and to cover it up and keep silent about it when he couldn't on the issue of Francesca. How does his conscience deal with accepting eavesdropping but not accidental seduction? I always wondered what Ray would do if he'd caught Fraser listening in, especially since we know that Ray's pretty big on privacy.

Indeed that sort of eavesdropping does seem completely against Fraser's moral code. Yet he doesn;t seem to have any trouble not mentioning it to Ray or Francesca. It's almost OOC for Fraser to be doing that. I would love to know the reason and Ray's reaction. Would he be upset? Relieved it was out in the open? That would make for a very interesting scene indeed.