yeah, i know what they say about winning an argument on the internet...
so, this self-professed "Rational and Reasonable Secular Humanist" guy on FB posts a comment about how terrible it is that this incident occurred (and it is indeed horrible)
http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/07/14/muslim-apostate-found-hanged-after-admitting-he-was-an-atheist/
and i replied with a comment that i thought related (since another friend had just randomly emailed this link about honor suicides to me... wtf?)
i said, "people do abhorrent things in the name of religion, all too often"
and provided this link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Honor_suicides
the OP responds with a comment grinding an axe about a vaguely related subject of contention in our other recent discussions
"Yea, and our generation has new-age delusions about reality that very well could lead to murder. The Zeitgeist Movement for one..."
so i replied with an extensive rant that he still hasn't replied to:
--
my roomie just recommended a similar futurist project without all of the rhetoric... perhaps you might be more interested in something like this?
"The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps" by Marshall T. Savage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millennial_Project:_Colonizing_the_Galaxy_in_Eight_Easy_Steps
and y'know, I can't stand cults of personality, either... but if I were going to start throwing stones, I probably wouldn't start with potential allies...at least the Zeitgeist Movement promotes skepticism of religion/politics/media and criticizes tyranny... they may also encourage some conspiratorial angles (verging on possible delusion) that i am not so fond of, but i haven't detected any tendencies towards advocation of homicide in their rhetoric or history (quite the opposite, actually) ...am i missing something?
seriously, i do look for that sort of thing...
for instance, here are samples of my criticism of Scientology:
http://aethyrflux.livejournal.com/41224.html#cutid1
here's my ranting about the founders of the NLP movement:
http://aethyrflux.livejournal.com/129701.html
& here's an excellent expose on Carlos Casteneda:
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/12/castaneda/index3.html#
i am not fond of cults, in general, and i would also prefer that people think & learn for themselves in a more self-directed way... nonetheless, there are people who prefer to go with the flow and speak the language that their friends speak ...& thus, affinity groups of one kind or another are born! rather than losing a potential audience members who may be swayed to my cause, i have worked hard to understand what motivates people to join groups in the first place ...and learn their language, so that i can educate them to rise above the prisons that they have built for themselves.
right around the time i first started looking investigating Zeitgeist & The Venus Project, I posted a related blog entitled:
LOVE: suspension of disbelief... within reason?
http://aethyrflux.livejournal.com/169847.html
i have to admit that there is something in emotional appeals (pathos) that i inherently distrust... i think that it reminds me of crooked politicians & creepy preachers, or something... but there have also been passionate pleas for worthy & righteous causes, throughout history! your own, perhaps? ;-) yet, you're just using pathos for cynical criticism, rather than fanatic fundamentalism... "death to all fanatics!" %~&
--
wasn't that reasonable, enough?
admittedly, i may be looking for an outlet for otherwise unexpressed anger... perhaps i should sleep on further fanning of the flames until i at least get some sleep... or maybe find a better form of catharsis than internet debate... masturbation, perhaps?!!!
meanwhile, i'm going to go back to reading tvtropes.org... & ROTFLMAOBBQ!!!!!11!1!1!1!!!!!11!11!!!111!11!!!
the other friend i mentioned has been watching B5 & we were discussing how the writer JMS is an atheist (which often obviously comes through in the episodes, one way or another)... and tvtropes.org refers to the overarching moral of the series as being something like:
"the pragmatic survive, and the determined thrive, but Faith Manages"
under the Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions entry, they even quote a conversation with JMS on USENET...
USENET: (on Passing Through Gethsemane) "The themes of faith and forgiveness were worthy of a theologian. Are you sure there isn't something you'd like to tell us?"
JMS: Never shoot pool at a place called Pop's. Never eat food at a place called Mom's. The difference between horses and humans is that they're too smart to bet on what we'll do.
And I have lost people. Too many people. Lost them to chance, violence, brutality beyond belief; I've seen all the senseless, ignoble acts of "god's noblest creature." And I am incapable of forgiving. My feelings are with G'Kar, hand sliced open, saying of the drops of blood flowing from that open wound, "How do you apologize to them?" "I can't." "Then I cannot forgive."
As an atheist, I believe that all life is unspeakably precious, because it's only here for a brief moment, a flare against the dark, and then it's gone forever. No afterlives, no second chances, no backsies. So there can be nothing crueler than the abuse, destruction or wanton taking of a life. It is a crime no less than burning the Mona Lisa, for there is always just one of each.
So I cannot forgive. Which makes the notion of writing a character who CAN forgive momentarily attractive...because it allows me to explore in great detail something of which I am utterly incapable. I cannot fly, so I would write of birds and starships and kites; I cannot play an instrument, so I would write of composers and dancers; and I cannot forgive, so I would write of priests and monks and Minbari....
http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/07/14/muslim-apostate-found-hanged-after-admitting-he-was-an-atheist/
and i replied with a comment that i thought related (since another friend had just randomly emailed this link about honor suicides to me... wtf?)
i said, "people do abhorrent things in the name of religion, all too often"
and provided this link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Honor_suicides
the OP responds with a comment grinding an axe about a vaguely related subject of contention in our other recent discussions
"Yea, and our generation has new-age delusions about reality that very well could lead to murder. The Zeitgeist Movement for one..."
so i replied with an extensive rant that he still hasn't replied to:
--
my roomie just recommended a similar futurist project without all of the rhetoric... perhaps you might be more interested in something like this?
"The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps" by Marshall T. Savage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millennial_Project:_Colonizing_the_Galaxy_in_Eight_Easy_Steps
and y'know, I can't stand cults of personality, either... but if I were going to start throwing stones, I probably wouldn't start with potential allies...at least the Zeitgeist Movement promotes skepticism of religion/politics/media and criticizes tyranny... they may also encourage some conspiratorial angles (verging on possible delusion) that i am not so fond of, but i haven't detected any tendencies towards advocation of homicide in their rhetoric or history (quite the opposite, actually) ...am i missing something?
seriously, i do look for that sort of thing...
for instance, here are samples of my criticism of Scientology:
http://aethyrflux.livejournal.com/41224.html#cutid1
here's my ranting about the founders of the NLP movement:
http://aethyrflux.livejournal.com/129701.html
& here's an excellent expose on Carlos Casteneda:
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/12/castaneda/index3.html#
i am not fond of cults, in general, and i would also prefer that people think & learn for themselves in a more self-directed way... nonetheless, there are people who prefer to go with the flow and speak the language that their friends speak ...& thus, affinity groups of one kind or another are born! rather than losing a potential audience members who may be swayed to my cause, i have worked hard to understand what motivates people to join groups in the first place ...and learn their language, so that i can educate them to rise above the prisons that they have built for themselves.
right around the time i first started looking investigating Zeitgeist & The Venus Project, I posted a related blog entitled:
LOVE: suspension of disbelief... within reason?
http://aethyrflux.livejournal.com/169847.html
i have to admit that there is something in emotional appeals (pathos) that i inherently distrust... i think that it reminds me of crooked politicians & creepy preachers, or something... but there have also been passionate pleas for worthy & righteous causes, throughout history! your own, perhaps? ;-) yet, you're just using pathos for cynical criticism, rather than fanatic fundamentalism... "death to all fanatics!" %~&
--
wasn't that reasonable, enough?
admittedly, i may be looking for an outlet for otherwise unexpressed anger... perhaps i should sleep on further fanning of the flames until i at least get some sleep... or maybe find a better form of catharsis than internet debate... masturbation, perhaps?!!!
meanwhile, i'm going to go back to reading tvtropes.org... & ROTFLMAOBBQ!!!!!11!1!1!1!!!!!11!11!!!111!11!!!
the other friend i mentioned has been watching B5 & we were discussing how the writer JMS is an atheist (which often obviously comes through in the episodes, one way or another)... and tvtropes.org refers to the overarching moral of the series as being something like:
"the pragmatic survive, and the determined thrive, but Faith Manages"
under the Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions entry, they even quote a conversation with JMS on USENET...
USENET: (on Passing Through Gethsemane) "The themes of faith and forgiveness were worthy of a theologian. Are you sure there isn't something you'd like to tell us?"
JMS: Never shoot pool at a place called Pop's. Never eat food at a place called Mom's. The difference between horses and humans is that they're too smart to bet on what we'll do.
And I have lost people. Too many people. Lost them to chance, violence, brutality beyond belief; I've seen all the senseless, ignoble acts of "god's noblest creature." And I am incapable of forgiving. My feelings are with G'Kar, hand sliced open, saying of the drops of blood flowing from that open wound, "How do you apologize to them?" "I can't." "Then I cannot forgive."
As an atheist, I believe that all life is unspeakably precious, because it's only here for a brief moment, a flare against the dark, and then it's gone forever. No afterlives, no second chances, no backsies. So there can be nothing crueler than the abuse, destruction or wanton taking of a life. It is a crime no less than burning the Mona Lisa, for there is always just one of each.
So I cannot forgive. Which makes the notion of writing a character who CAN forgive momentarily attractive...because it allows me to explore in great detail something of which I am utterly incapable. I cannot fly, so I would write of birds and starships and kites; I cannot play an instrument, so I would write of composers and dancers; and I cannot forgive, so I would write of priests and monks and Minbari....