I used to do that - once upon a time...
Long before the popular use of the Internet, before the explosion of The Web 1.0, I was a part of the BBS networks phenomenon.
It was during this time that I participated in my first Interfaith Discussion/Debate forum, and I participated there on a daily basis for approximately eight years before the forum was removed by an administration with a phobia about debate that also nuked the Politics forum for the same reason. At the virtual round table with me were Pagans, Atheists, Christians (fundamentalist, main-stream, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox), Jews (mostly Reformed), Baha'i's, and the occasional Taoist.
After that, and after moving to The Internet, I ended up joining the CNN Religion Today forum, which was similar in some respects to the WN Religion forum, but was by its very definition much bigger and unwieldy. There I began to rub virtual elbows with Muslims and Chassidic Jews. As you can imagine, it was also far more riddled with trolls and those whose sole purpose there was to inspire or enable flamewars. It served my needs for interfaith dialogue - such as it was - for another year or so before CNN had had it with the chaos and nuked many of its more volatile fora.
All of this is preamble, setting the stage.
What has me writing about this major part of my life - something that really did a great deal to keep me sane and working through some of my less than pleasant life experiences while my Real Life™ was in an absolute uproar financially and emotionally - is that I ran into something on FaceBook the other day that brought it all back. A friend of mine (a philosophy student) was being intellectually and spiritually pummelled by a vehement convert to atheism. I tried to reason with the fellow, but it soon became apparent that the fellow was really only interested in arguing - in hearing the sound of his own voice - and attempting to TELL the other person what they "should" believe. That's always been a "hot button" of mine. It was what attracted me, and then what finally drove me to just move along and away from the conversation.
What surprised me was how tired I got of the entire conversation, and how quickly I closed things down from my end. Actually, I have to admit that I got a chuckle out of the fact that although I told him quite clearly that, "You are now talking to an empty room", and my friend who made the original post told him they were heading off to do something else in Real Life™, the guy kept right on arguing with both my friend and with me as if we were still there.
What is it about the human mind that some folks feel empowered and obligated to tell others what they should or shouldn't believe? Why is it that so many feel that they absolutely have to argue, denigrate and disparage a conflicting view so that their view has a chance of being accepted? Simple logic and a bit of objective observation demonstrate that this kind of intellectual and spiritual violence generally only hardens the resolve of the person being abused against whatever the other person is trying to "sell". What's worse, I've seen all too many of those of the atheistic/agnostic persuasion who are either recent converts or of an argumentative bent complain bitterly about the evangelism of fundamentalist Christianity, yet do not see the hypocrisy of themselves doing exactly the same thing in reverse whenever they get a chance to face off with anyone who claims to be religious, regardless of belief system.
Once upon a time, this stuff would have been exactly the kinds of discussions I was looking for. Once upon a time, I would try to insert a voice of calm and reason in order to try to transform argument and flames into an actual conversation that would result in some level of understanding and mutual respect. I certainly still believe that such an activity is a very worthwhile thing to engage in.
But it seems that my patience is now shot. If nothing else, this latest return to the intellectual battleground of fifteen, twenty years ago has taught me that I'm done spending time on the front lines. I can discuss spiritual matters with others, I can even teach about what I believe if asked, but I no longer have any desire to spend any time at all with folks who have no interest in listening to anyone but themselves.
Maybe that means I'm giving up - that I haven't got the stomach for it anymore and am walking away from the battlefield with the war un-won. Maybe I'm just recognizing that I, as a solitary individual, am not going to change the world or the nature of the people in it. Not with words, at least. Maybe my idealism has matured into a practicality that can appreciate the diversity of faith - from fundamentalism to liberalism to nihilism to agnosticism to atheism - but it chooses to now appreciate that diversity from a distance.
Either way, this has taught me I'm not the same person I was fifteen, twenty years ago. And I think that this is a good thing. I learned a lot in those BBS and CNN days that I still make good use of in my daily practice, but I find I have no driving need to participate in that kind of conversation anymore that is littered with folks not there to learn, not there to discuss, but only there to argue, do battle, evangelize, to tear down - to "make others wrong so they can feel right."
I think I've finally grown up, and I'm sitting here wondering if I feel proud of that or whether I've lost something important. Maybe it's a little bit of both, eh?
It was during this time that I participated in my first Interfaith Discussion/Debate forum, and I participated there on a daily basis for approximately eight years before the forum was removed by an administration with a phobia about debate that also nuked the Politics forum for the same reason. At the virtual round table with me were Pagans, Atheists, Christians (fundamentalist, main-stream, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox), Jews (mostly Reformed), Baha'i's, and the occasional Taoist.
After that, and after moving to The Internet, I ended up joining the CNN Religion Today forum, which was similar in some respects to the WN Religion forum, but was by its very definition much bigger and unwieldy. There I began to rub virtual elbows with Muslims and Chassidic Jews. As you can imagine, it was also far more riddled with trolls and those whose sole purpose there was to inspire or enable flamewars. It served my needs for interfaith dialogue - such as it was - for another year or so before CNN had had it with the chaos and nuked many of its more volatile fora.
All of this is preamble, setting the stage.
What has me writing about this major part of my life - something that really did a great deal to keep me sane and working through some of my less than pleasant life experiences while my Real Life™ was in an absolute uproar financially and emotionally - is that I ran into something on FaceBook the other day that brought it all back. A friend of mine (a philosophy student) was being intellectually and spiritually pummelled by a vehement convert to atheism. I tried to reason with the fellow, but it soon became apparent that the fellow was really only interested in arguing - in hearing the sound of his own voice - and attempting to TELL the other person what they "should" believe. That's always been a "hot button" of mine. It was what attracted me, and then what finally drove me to just move along and away from the conversation.
What surprised me was how tired I got of the entire conversation, and how quickly I closed things down from my end. Actually, I have to admit that I got a chuckle out of the fact that although I told him quite clearly that, "You are now talking to an empty room", and my friend who made the original post told him they were heading off to do something else in Real Life™, the guy kept right on arguing with both my friend and with me as if we were still there.
What is it about the human mind that some folks feel empowered and obligated to tell others what they should or shouldn't believe? Why is it that so many feel that they absolutely have to argue, denigrate and disparage a conflicting view so that their view has a chance of being accepted? Simple logic and a bit of objective observation demonstrate that this kind of intellectual and spiritual violence generally only hardens the resolve of the person being abused against whatever the other person is trying to "sell". What's worse, I've seen all too many of those of the atheistic/agnostic persuasion who are either recent converts or of an argumentative bent complain bitterly about the evangelism of fundamentalist Christianity, yet do not see the hypocrisy of themselves doing exactly the same thing in reverse whenever they get a chance to face off with anyone who claims to be religious, regardless of belief system.
Once upon a time, this stuff would have been exactly the kinds of discussions I was looking for. Once upon a time, I would try to insert a voice of calm and reason in order to try to transform argument and flames into an actual conversation that would result in some level of understanding and mutual respect. I certainly still believe that such an activity is a very worthwhile thing to engage in.
But it seems that my patience is now shot. If nothing else, this latest return to the intellectual battleground of fifteen, twenty years ago has taught me that I'm done spending time on the front lines. I can discuss spiritual matters with others, I can even teach about what I believe if asked, but I no longer have any desire to spend any time at all with folks who have no interest in listening to anyone but themselves.
Maybe that means I'm giving up - that I haven't got the stomach for it anymore and am walking away from the battlefield with the war un-won. Maybe I'm just recognizing that I, as a solitary individual, am not going to change the world or the nature of the people in it. Not with words, at least. Maybe my idealism has matured into a practicality that can appreciate the diversity of faith - from fundamentalism to liberalism to nihilism to agnosticism to atheism - but it chooses to now appreciate that diversity from a distance.
Either way, this has taught me I'm not the same person I was fifteen, twenty years ago. And I think that this is a good thing. I learned a lot in those BBS and CNN days that I still make good use of in my daily practice, but I find I have no driving need to participate in that kind of conversation anymore that is littered with folks not there to learn, not there to discuss, but only there to argue, do battle, evangelize, to tear down - to "make others wrong so they can feel right."
I think I've finally grown up, and I'm sitting here wondering if I feel proud of that or whether I've lost something important. Maybe it's a little bit of both, eh?