My Take on Ashcans

[adamdray]

Okay, so there's kerfluffle here and there about ashcans. To help the uninitiated, let me share my definition:

ashcan n. an early release of a role-playing game that isn't complete because it needs development, playtesting, editing, art, and so on, often released for free, sometimes sold, to gamers in the hopes of gathering feedback that will

Comments

[philreed]

Ashcan RPGs aren't exactly new, though. About 15 years ago The Whispering Vault was released as an "ashcan." It's just that today, it seems, more people are embracing the idea and using it as both a marketing tool and a way to generate a little extra income. Neither of which is bad, as long as the customer knows exactly what he's buying.

[adamdray]

Right on.

[zakarntson]

My take on it is this: If you didn't do your research and spent five bucks on a photocopied booklet, then there you go. Next time, save your lunch money for some food.

I mean, is this a real issue? Are people buying ashcans and then getting mad? Or is it an imagined issue on the part of the complainers?

I'm only following these discussions on the barest level, because I think the whole debate is silly. There's no "ashcan industry" just like there's no "indie industry," so it's weird to talk about dilution or brand recongnition or whatever.

[adamdray]

Well, read Ryan's complaints to get an idea of why people are mad. Or at least Ryan is mad.

I think it's probably an imagined issue, really, as I don't know of anyone who has bought an ashcan and felt cheated.

Ryan's beef seems to be grilled from the standpoint of a game author competing with other game authors though, so he's not imagining how he feels about it.

[zakarntson]

Ah. I see where he's coming from. I'm looking at it from a customer's perspective.

Oh well. I'm not going to be gaming for a few years yet, so I'll wait until then to really think about the state of the union.

[macklinr]

Point of note: what has me "mad" is that people are saying "I'm mad."

I'm at a high toxicity rate with all things indie lately because people refuse to read my text charitably. Apparently, I cannot simply outline my viewpoints and try to explain why I believe something. I have to be "mad" or "negative" or "cynical."

[indie_insurgent]

Thanks, Adam.

[tundra_no_caps]

If it's free, I'll just call it a playstest document.

[adamdray]

Sure. I think Paul and crew meant to differentiate an ashcan from other playtest documents though. According to them, an ashcan has been playtested already and just needs additional tuning.

[tundra_no_caps]

Then how do we call "Playtest Gamma", or whatever?

If we look at the term, I think the difference is in the printing, and in the binding, heh.

[gillan]

i didn't mean to make a kerfuffle!

though i think it's interesting that people keep saying "caveat emptor" but are also criticizing people who as consumers are criticizing a publication process that they don't find appealing/attractive/whatever and are supposed to shut the eff up.

really it seems like there's a whole lot of sensitivity around the issue and i'm sorry i put my foot in it.

[tundra_no_caps]

If it makes you feel better, Jonathan's blog saw this talked about a couple of days ago, but Wordpress doesn't have LJ's friend-page, not the same way.

Heh.
And there are a bunch of us on LJ.

[adamdray]

That's a great thread. I can see many different lines of thought represented there in the comments. Thanks for the pointer.

[adamdray]

You made a kerfluffle and now you have to clean it up!

No, seriously, it's not a huge deal. People made a lot of noise about ashcans when they first came out. This is just round two. Has little to do with you.

If you're talking about me, regarding caveat emptor, I want to say that I'm criticizing consumers only for cynically believing that publishers are doing it to screw them. I'm saying, talk to these people about their ashcans and their motives, and give them the benefit of a doubt. I really don't think they're trying to screw anyone