Some people just don't get it.
************ is tired of being called a jagoff, moron and other degrading terms b/c of who she's voting for. This country was built on freedom of choice -- let me have mine!
I saw this on facebook this morning. I don't know the girl too well, we were just classmates in college. It's obvious that she is voting McCain. But given McCain and Palin's ( Read more... )
I saw this on facebook this morning. I don't know the girl too well, we were just classmates in college. It's obvious that she is voting McCain. But given McCain and Palin's ( Read more... )
me: Wow, sorry to hear people are being douchebags. While I apparently disagree with your politics, I agree that you have the right to your choices and that that is what this country is built on. But given the current republican ticket's stance on women's reproductive rights, it may be to your benefit to choose ... Read Moredifferent wording in making your wholly valid point.
me: Oops, that is, assumiing you are voting Republican :P (I got up at 5:30 to vote and haven't had my coffee yet).
him: omens rights? thats interesting no one seems to talk about the basic human right to live in which 43 million people have not gotten since roe v. wade. the abortion problem is the greatest human rights violation in mankinds history. children our most innocent people have had the joy of life stolen from them. women have had the joy of children ... ... Read MoreRead Morestolen from them and have suffered untold emotional stress. i just got an email of a picture my nephew who has multiple birth defects. He is a sick child, however, his mother and him are sure happy that he was given his rights in her womb. Thank goodness someone thought about his rights.
me: I'm not getting into the abortion debate in someone else's profile - I was just pointing out that her choice of words makes her an easy target for additional undue harassment and works against the favor of a valid point. You're obviously not going to change your mind, nor will I mine, so why start a shitfest where it's not needed?
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the problem is clearly on both sides---as you've touched on, liberals can be douchebags just as easily as conservatives, & i've certainly seen my share of reprehensible words/behavior from Obama supporters. (it actually seems that much worse, for me, when it's coming from a Democrat. because we should be taking the high road; we should be accepting any opinions we come across as totally valid, whether or not we agree; & we should be respectful of every one of those opinions, because we damn well demand the same.)
but it goes -- is going -- much farther, & this really, really worries me.
when one's support of a particular candidate goes deeper than concerns over policy differences---that is to say, when you make an entire election come down to what you view as being "pro-murder" or "anti-murder" (to use your interaction as an example), the ability to have an intelligent dialogue instantly goes *poof* ... it's the same mentality as this "You're with America or you're with the Terrorists---pick one!" it's boiling an incredibly complex reality down to a black & white picture, & instantly damning everything that's even a little bit gray.
& the thing is...... i just can't figure out how to fight that. at the point where you've closed off all dialogue, what exactly remains? how does one make any sort of reasonable case, or hope for any kind of compromise, when the "other side" has invested itself so fully in an issue that every other perspective is not only wrong, but, in fact, sinful?
much as i'd like to believe that the mentality i'm describing still represents a minority of this country....... i'm not sure that's entirely accurate. in fact, the % seems to be growing -- not diminishing -- every year.
& while an Obama win tonight would go a long way toward giving me faith that we are, at least, trying to get past this as a nation, i don't think it's happening quickly enough. & i'm genuinely frightened of what it could mean if we don't.
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And what am I STILL hearing about Obama? Socialism - which is so not what is going on. Socialism is state control of businesses (more like the bailout), not closing tax loopholes former administrations opened for a select demographic. Islam/Arab - which isn't true or inherently bad even if it were true. Terrorist - How many of us would be fucked over if we were all proven guilty by association, and weak associations at that. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
I had to explain to a very smart guy I know (actually earns his $175k/year) that you can't bitch about paying more taxes AND bitch that the education system needs an overhaul. How do these people think that public services like education get funded? And how much worse would it get with a spending freeze?
As bad as it may sound, I am actually a one-issue voter here because to me the preservation of Roe v. Wade is that important. But the idea of a president who wants to reverse it is so indicative of many scarier things to me, like integration of church and state and degredation of select demographics' rights, that it is but isn't just one issue.
You're absolutely right, we end up with one side shouting black and the other white (no pun intended) when the reality is that there is only grey, even though almost no one wants to even acknowledge that, let along talk about it intelligently.
Some friends and I were discussing how the Republican party is being split, with Palin there as a catalyst and highlight of the situation. But what's scaring me is that I think the whole country is getting split very far apart - look at interviews at rallies. Supporters of both candidates have this "I'm terrified of what would happen with *him* as president." I"m wondering what it will take to get people mostly unified, or if that is possible to regain at all at this point.
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i guess, as i sit here considering all of this, the seemingly-best way to encourage the kind of dialogue we're after is to... well, keep opening the table for it. i try to raise questions about issues as publicly as i can, & hope that a diversity of people respond to it (see: my Facebook posts for the last couple months). & i just hope hope hope that those who aren't educated enough to carry on intelligent discourse, will take their inability as inspiration to learn..... the alternative, of course, is that they just become increasingly bitter toward the "elitism" they accuse liberals of harboring. but that could happen anyway, so at least we tried, right?
But what's scaring me is that I think the whole country is getting split very far apart
... yes. this is exactly it. & historically speaking, when there's been this much of a gap within a country -- be it in education, wealth, or politics -- it's basically led to a civil war. & yeah, i worry about that happening here. a whole lot.
the only other possibility that i can see -- the one that i've started pushing, from this year forward -- is to open up the political landscape as much as fucking possible. which means we need MORE than two major parties staking out two opposing stances. ultimately that doesn't get us anywhere... at best it becomes "the lesser of two evils" (i.e. Bush vs. Kerry); at worst, it deepens the division within our country.
so, starting this election, i'm voting for -- & pushing -- reasonable 3rd party candidates.
seriously.
now, i'm not talking about Presidential elections here... frankly, most of the 3rd-party contenders i've seen for that office have been nuts anyway, but more---i don't think this can be a "top down" transition. it's not reasonable to expect that big of a change, that quickly. not to mention---none of the 3rd-parties are actually prepared for it anyway.
BUT, i think that if we start packing municipal & state legislatures, & even executive offices, with reasonable people from established 3rd parties.... well, i think that we can start to create a political climate based more on the validity of ideas than on the position of platform. i'd argue that it's platform-politics that makes people "stupid"; it's the with-us-or-against-us mentality that inspires people to give up on trying to really understand things, by simply pushing them into one of two possible queues.
i know, i know, right now we see the 3rd-parties as prettymuch stupid. & right now they prettymuch are. .... but what i see, is that in a world where we can actually elect, say, Green Party or Libertarian state senators, then other Americans (maybe... Joe the Plumber???) can see that it's possible, reasonable, & maybe even a good idea, to add their unique views & abilities to better our government. & they would be able to do that without pandering to the base of 1 of 2 possible groups; they would be able to represent complex opinions, rather than perceived demographics; &, perhaps most importantly, they would be able to engage Americans on actual issues as opposed to abstract platforms. we can't do that right now, whatever way you splice things.
... heh, sorry for writing a book. but i've been thinking about this shit a lot lately, & trying to figure out how we can help it get better. multi-party politics may not be the only answer, but i think it's one of the best that i've come across recently.
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What can I say Tim, I'm a "bitter" Pennsylvanian voter; one who clings to his guns and religion and doesn't think coal powered power plants should be bankrupted :-)
.. after which pleasantries were exchanged on both sides. i told him that he sure must be bitter, for still "clinging" to a comment made last April.
i also told him that i was very glad he voted, regardless of who it was for.
so, yay for the reasonable Republicans, at least!
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I think there are more reasonable people out there than we think, but it can be hard to get people to speak up and be the voice of reason, whichever side they're on, for fear of being attacked by both the opposition and their own 'kind'. I run into this at work a lot now: I email the state about some concerns I have and BCC some people from other regions, and the next thing I know people are calling me from 300 miles away to tell me that they wanted to thank me and share their support - but NO ONE WANTS TO START THE CONVERSATION IN PUBLIC or even go on record (hence calls instead of emails). After meetings, everyone talks about the same thing, but no one brings things up in meetings and there is no reason not to. Ever.
I've decided that in my work life, especially after seeing positive results, I'm going to continue to be the one who speaks up when shit just doesn't sound right. Being kind of new, I get away with 'playing dumb' pretty easily so I feel like I have a free pass to point out glaring inconsistencies and gaps. I need to start doing it more in my personal life, and I've tried to a little bit. Spread the word to other reasonable people you know: speak up as the voice of intelligent reason. Because if we don't, no one else will.
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