Christ, I can't believe I'm getting into this.
This is a response to miladyhawke's post: What We Say We Stand For - Viggo/Orli & Domlijah Rant - What the Shit is this!? . I'm posting it here because it got way too fucking long.
( cut to save the innocent )
( cut to save the innocent )
Anyhow, you have some good points in here (esp. because some V/O shippers were originally causing problems), and more and more my general impression is becoming that alot of the mess has to do with misunderstandings and miscommunications.
Some general points for discussion:
Why is it always the one addressing the issue that gets called a shit stirrer? Nobody would feel the need to speak up if everything was alright.
There absolutely are bad apples out there, so you're right that everything isn't alright, but the problem people had with the OP is that she wasn't (until much later) talking about the few. You're right that she didn't create the larger issues, but I said that her post was making it worse by blaming all V/O believers. She said that ALL V/O believers are self-hating, psychotic, misogynists who bash Kate, and so she'd like to be defriended by anyone who believes. That's what I saw as being a problem, making a massive sweeping generalization that creates a V/O believer vs. anti-V/O believer situation. At first I simply said to her that there are other ways you could have gone about this, but she replied to me that she was being deliberately confrontational. As it happens, from recent comments it looks like the people she says she was talking about were V/O shippers who got on other people's cases about writing outside their OTP, specifically Banabloom. Did this appear anywhere in her OP? No. Therefore, the V/O statements looked incredibly wild out of context.
find the idea that we should all live together in one big, happy family annoying, but that's just my subjective opinion. It's a fake harmony you want.
Oh no. We're not all going to get along; I'm just being idealistic here. At the very least, I can't see why we can't tolerate each other though or leave each other alone.
Also, you are not doing yourself a favour by bringing the tinhats into this (I mean the word in the way it was first thought of).
If I offended anyone by throwing around the term, I'm truly sorry. I was not, however, using it in the sense of its original meaning as a derogatory term, so I don't see how that lessens my credibility. Rather, a lot of believers have reclaimed the term and use it self-referentially and affectionately towards others to show their pride in what they are and that others' mocking does not bother them. Kinda like gay people reclaimed 'queer.' I definitely did want to bring Domlijah into this though just because I think the case is somewhat similar, and it's another division that makes me sad.
Again, not everyone who believes in the reality of viggorli bashes Kate, but the community as a whole failed in showing the hateful few their boundaries.
Yes, you're right. That's wrong if it's just done to be petty, and shouldn't be done on lists anyway, rather kept in people's journals if they have to do it at all. And yeah, communities should set boundaries. I can't entirely fault everybody for not getting involved with this though because these things have a way of getting ugly, and it does drain one's stamina.
I also think you're missing the point Stewardess wanted to make. It is the hateful, fanatic behaviour that's pissing people off.
Oh yeah. I didn't even contest or comment on that at all - when it came to the first part of her post. It's the ETA postscript that pissed everyone off, with the equation that V/O believer = self-hating, psychotic, Kate-bashing, woman-hater. Not all (or even many) V/O believers fit this bill, but that's not what she said. She didn't say that she was talking about a few spoiling it for all - so I think that you missed the point of the postscript. Unless of course it is that you agree with her equation and think that V/O believers are generally hateful fanatics.
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The problem I have is that I don't understand this belief issue. Your reply here has clarified the point for me even further, I'm not sure whether you realise the extent to which this word keeps appearing. For me, this is what it all boils down to, and I wrote a little about this on my blog. Why do you think people do it? Where does V/O belief come from? You said that you "personally believe that the things that drive their beliefs come from the most noble places in the human heart." I was hoping you could expand on that, or if you know of an unintimidating and coherently rational believer that is unlikely to jump on me, if they could explain it. As I said, I really don't understand. I know it's possible I never will, but seeing as it's causing so much strife I feel I should at least try.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I genuinely am curious. I'm not asking you to show me clips, photos or interviews to try to convince me how easy it is to draw the V/O conclusion, I'm asking you to explain the personal level of why so many believe.
Whilst I find the OP's explanation that Kate-bashing stems from a kind of projected self-loathing to be a little too extreme to be considered fully credible, the suggestion that Viggo and Orlando are seen as too perfect to be with anybody but each other does seem to be worth a little extra thought. And that worries me, as it seems to be more about deification than woman-hating.
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I'd love to come over, but it's almost three in the morning where I am now, and I need to go to bed. If you don't mind, I could come over tomorrow evening after work.
Btw, you're a sweetheart; I can't see anybody anywhere jumping on you. It is still a scary issue to get involved with though.
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And re being jumped? Don't you believe it. I've been involved with a couple of different altercations upon one particular ViggOrli BNF's journal, and it was without doubt the worst experiences I've had online. I actually promised both the general ViggOrli community and myself that I would never get involved with that circle ever again in an attempt at peace and coexistence. This seems like enough of a fandom-wide discussion that I can hopefully be excused for expressing my views, however.
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Yes, you are right that she didn't include her reasons for making the post, I wasn't aware of the problems some people have been facing when deciding to switch pairings. But for me the post still made sense for I had seen vicious comments and fanatical behaviour aside from that.
Making too broad declarations never quite hits the mark, but I still think there is a lot of truth in her post. My take on it is that she posted it to get a reaction out of people, to make them think about what they are doing. What I don’t agree on anymore is the way she threw different issues into the same pot. It’s all a bit more complicated, I think.
I agree that calling all Viggorli believers self-hating misogynists isn't helping, though I believe there is a bit of truth in it when it comes to bashing Kate. It's nothing special that only happens in Lotrips, though. X-Files is a prominent example.
What astounds me is that I have seen all this before with the tinhats - I don’t mean believers but the scary bunch that originally got labelled thus; I try to not use the term when referring to non-harmful people who simply believe in the RL possibility of a certain pairing. Franka Potente got seriously sickening commentary when she was introduced as Elijah's girlfriend. It was nauseating to say the least.
I do think it's mostly the truly rabid Orlando fangirls who bash Kate, but there is a connection to Viggorli believers. It’s not so much self-hatred but the tendency to over-idealise the men and their “love” as something pure, untainted and untouchable, I think. I does make me uncomfortable because it’s so easy to see potential girlfriends or simply close male friends as a threat. It has happened before in this fandom and it makes me very wary. It’s nothing confined to the realm of Viggorli believers; some rabid Dom/Billy fans cal Ali all sorts of names, the tinhats bashed Sean Astin.
For me it’s not really about the Viggorli believer but a general phenomenon that interests and appals me.
The world of fandom or slash fandom is no happy place filled with only tolerant, open-minded people. There is misogyny in slash, there is homophobia and heterophobia.
(This is getting long again, I’m sorry. I’m not trying to turn you into some sort of spokesperson but you’ve been willing to discuss this, for which I am grateful. And I’m looking forward to reading what you have to say in response to missiedith’s post. Feel free to use my journal so I get everything delivered to my inbox. *g*)
I'm having a hard time getting the terms straight. I love the pairing myself, have always done; it's not quite my OTP but close. However, I'm no believer; it's all just happening in the fictional realm of my slashy mind.
It is something I don’t understand but I’m willing to happily tolerate it.
Oh no. We're not all going to get along; I'm just being idealistic here. At the very least, I can't see why we can't tolerate each other though or leave each other alone.
There is nothing wrong with being idealistic. I think I’ve finally found my fannish zen, this issue now isn’t half as troubling or annoying to me than it would’ve been last year. Maybe I’m getting old. *g*
I’m all for live and let live. I don’t want a segregated fandom (not that is isn’t hopelessly split up in fractions already) that only ever speaks to another part on special occasions. When an issue present itself I want to be able to discuss it without the fear that it will become a flamewar. I do not venture into the realm of Viggorli communities for exactly that reason, I know I don’t like it there so I try to keep away from it. Sad as I am about it.
tbc...
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I can't entirely fault everybody for not getting involved with this though because these things have a way of getting ugly, and it does drain one's stamina.
Gah. Don’t remind me. Been there, done that. I’m just saying that there are places that make me sick to the stomach listening to the hate-speech, and no one says a word. But it can be avoided by just not venturing there, it’s harder to escape the casual comments thrown around all over LJ. I only say things when something seriously pisses me off; choose your battles and all that. It is not worth it when the only thing you succeed in is the perpetrator feeling as a victim because you dare to criticise her behaviour.
My tolerance reaches only so far as it isn’t harmful what people do or say. I highly value freedom of speech but there are limits.
And I want to thank you again for coming here, and for being willing to listen to me and share your thoughts.
PS. You didn’t offend me by using the word "tinhat". It was just one of the many misunderstanding in this whole mess, I think. I use the term in the way it was originally meant and you in the reclaimed way. I do think both domlijah and viggorli have a lot in common when it comes to believers. If you’re ever interested, I have a whole bunch of links to very interesting posts on the tinhat (how I mean it) issue.
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Basically, I have to say first that what I liked here about your attitude and your opinions is that you’re not seeing everything as black and white the way many people do. And as you said, these issues are quite complicated (over-simplification is one of the horrors of this kerfluffle), and you seem to have a very balanced and fair perspective.
There is one point that you brought up though that was actually the subject of my entire post at Missiedith’s blog, the Beautiful Dreamers response. I have a feeling that anyone other than yourself who sees it is going to give me all kinds of grief and mock mercilessly, but what can I say. I’m a hopelessly romantic sap. I’m happy that way.
The point is this:
I do think it's mostly the truly rabid Orlando fangirls who bash Kate, but there is a connection to Viggorli believers. It’s not so much self-hatred but the tendency to over-idealise the men and their “love” as something pure, untainted and untouchable, I think. I does make me uncomfortable because it’s so easy to see potential girlfriends or simply close male friends as a threat.
This is a very interesting, and I think, valid, point. I’d like to add two things to that statement that I think I mentioned over at Missie’s. Firstly, I’m quite willing to bet that feeling a threat to V/O is where the Kate-bashing of any V/O believers comes from. I’m not quite sure that the idealization of a pure love is all that dangerous of a corrupting temptation for most V/O believers though. I see whether one bashes or not as being about individual maturity, and it’s because most don’t bash that the idealization doesn’t concern me, I also tend to think that idealization is what many OTPs are about. To back up what I’m talking about, the V/O/K triangle is a lot like Aragorn/Legolas/Arwen (sorry, I must bring my OTP into every conversation, lol). The exact same perception of a threat to their OTP is what leads some A/L shippers to bash Arwen in their fics, and anyone who reads A/L is quite familiar with the phenomenon. However, it’s still the few, and most are mature enough to leave Arwen out of it or else treat her fairly in their fic. Of course the V/O shippers who bash are more of a problem though because they are so very visible on lists. I’m watching one or two get taken over by it.
This is getting long again, I’m sorry. I’m not trying to turn you into some sort of spokesperson
I think that’s what I became after my journal entry was linked to in your newsletter ;) which I just friended, but it’s all good. I was just confused as all hell where in the woodwork all these random people were coming from. Originally I was just wanking in my journal for the sake of personal release and sharing with my little set of friends, not expecting anything to come of it. I’m not really the best person to continue running my mouth off about all this (lennongirl and others have been much better spoken), but I hope that even if people don’t agree with me, my willingness to talk will rub off and spread.
Thanks for the contd conversation; it’s been my pleasure being here.
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