On Being Taught The Obvious
Hi. I haven't posted here before. I'm an INFP who's highest Jung type feature comes out as N (and consequently lowest feature is S). This isn't only true in personality tests, this comes out consistently in day to day life.
On the advice of ramsey_sitc I post.
This was a topic I posted to the _infp_ community:I feel like no one ever bothers to tell me about ( Read more... )
On the advice of ramsey_sitc I post.
This was a topic I posted to the _infp_ community:I feel like no one ever bothers to tell me about ( Read more... )
i'm an ENTP. i score incredibly high on the N scale for almost every single MB test that i've taken. it's usually around 90%-ish. this shows much in my daily interactions. at school, i've always had trouble seeing how some people couldn't understand certain concepts that seem so blatantly obvious to me. on the other hand, other people often label me as "ditzy" because i seem to them so "out of it" in normal conventions.
i have a very close friend who appears to be a definite S. she places a great deal of importance on "common sense" and responsibilities. from what i see, she seems like an ISFJ [exact opposite of me]. even though we've been close friends for a very long time, i've always felt that she saw me as her inferior, for she's always giving me good-intentioned lectures on how i dont know how to "take care of myself" and how i'm never going to survive in the real world. on the other hand, when i went to the same school as she did and was consequently in many of the same classes, i found that i understood "difficult" abstract topics much faster than she did.
my friend gives me lectures on how i should act more appropriately in order to be less "ditzy" and "airheaded". i try to pretend to listen, but i think she realized by now that her efforts are not working, so what i get from her is getting better.
in terms of S people in general, on the other hand, what i get it much worse. i've found recently that i just dont "get" people sometimes. i attribute it to being an NT [which just happen to be the two parts what i tested strongest in]. as an NT, not only is there the "s-plaination" phenomenon [i love your word, kiwimouse] but there's also the situation with T's just not as good as F's in establishing rapport. just as i often miss matters of "common sense" in daily life, i also found that i am extremely lacking in the area of good communication with others. for example, i used to never make eye contact when i talk to people. i've never felt compelled to look people in the eye when i talk to them. to me, the content of what i'm talking about is more important than the nuances of body language. recently, a friend pointed that out to me and told me how i should start looking at people when i talk and that most people find it uncomfortable when i dont look at them. i am making an effort now, but it's still unnatural for me. another thing is touching people when i talk to them. in this case, it might be also attributed to my chinese upbringing. asians in general arent very touchy-feely people. the point here: other people have a whole ritual of discreet touchings in order to get closer to the person with whom their communication. that whole thing is way over my head.
i went to the infp forum and read the entire post and subsequent thread. i want to thank you and everyone who posted there. it has been a rather enlightening experience reading about this phenomenon. for the first time, someone put into words how i've always felt. thank you thank you thank you!
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2. a. no. i've never been tested for it [and no offense taken] though recently i read a book which featured an autistic protagonist/narrator. it was written by a specialist who works with autistic children, so i'm assuming it's pretty accurate. have you heard of the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime by mark haddon? the kid in this book has trouble making eye contact and discreet touches, is unable to read facial expressions and body language, possess a high iq and unbelievable mathematic abilities, but he seemed to also dislike abstract thought, preferring the concrete. i'm guessing there are different types of autism?
b. do you think i should get tested for it? if so, how would i go about doing this?
3. are things like eye contact, touching as a form of communication, and ability to read body language supposed to be natural to most people or do people usually consiously learn these things? i tried reading online guides on these, but i'm still a bit out of it...
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2. a. I really liked that book and alot of the stuff in it is familiar. (I like working with autistic kids and do so when ever I get a chance). Every autistic person is different. This is because it's a clump of symptoms, behaviors, and tendancies. For example, on the sensory level, while a lot have little or no tolerance for touch, others crave it to the point of inappropriateness.
People often say that autistic people are concrete thinkers, but I don't agree. The have a hard time reading social cues, so it's difficult for them to generalize in social situations. Each interaction is made up of complex rules and it's hard to pick which ones fit.
Math has rules that are easier to figure out, if you are wired the right way. Once you understand how the quadratic equation applies, it's relatively easy to work out when to apply it. Math is extremely abstract, although you can apply it to the real world. I am perhaps extra aware of it, since I spend a lot of my working life trying to explain mat to concrete thinkers. Just understanding that a single squiggle on the paper means nine actual things is a huge leap, it's just that most of us make that leap when we are really young. I've spent hours trying to get kids to understand concepts like borrowing or the distributive nature of numbers. Try explaining the quadric equation to a teenager who really doesn't get it, and you'll see how much you take for granted. I know where to plug in the numbers, but it's not intuitively obvious to concrete thinkers.
People often underestimate the autistic because they miss a lot of things that are obvious to the neurotypical (body language, subtle signals). Many often have trouble communicating, particularly when they are in overload. (Abilty to speak doesn't neccesarily mean someone is high functioning. Inability to speak doesn't mean someone is low functioning. Computers have helped a lot, since people can often type when speaking is difficulty. There's a guy in India who write poetry in seven languages, and does higher math, but still can't talk). Trouble with communicating makes it way harder to figure out what people are capable of. It also makes it hard to understand what's going on on other levels.
Emotions can be just as overwhelming to them as the physical world. (Donna Williams, an Australian high functioning autistic who wrote several books about her life, suggests that the dislike of eye contact is related to this. Looking someone in the eye is emotionally overwhelming so it's easier to connect with someone while not looking at them).
It's a spectrum. You get people with PDD, who have autistic behavioral traits, but don't have enough to be concidered autistic. You get people like me with just the sensory bit. You get people with Aspergers who are extremely intelligent (a lot get jobs in math, science, or computers), able to communicate generally, but socially awkward and with enough autistic bahaviors/symptoms to count as autistic. There are high functioning people who get by most of the time in daily life, even though they display autistic patterns, and low functioning people who need a lot of help to get through life.
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yesterday, i digged through the internet rather frenetically to find information on AS and HFA... i ended up comparing the symptoms described in the articles to myself and wrote two rather lengthy posts in my personal LJ in a fit of analysis and reflection. many of the symptoms of AS, which i found in an article written by yale professors, described me to quite accurately. i think i got a bit carried away with research and analysis...
Try explaining the quadric equation to a teenager who really doesn't get it, and you'll see how much you take for granted.
i see your point about autistics capable of abstract thinking because math is abstract. brief anecdote: a couple of years ago, i got a paid tutoring job helping a 7th grader. although much of her academic inpetitude could be attributed to the poor state of the new orleans public school system [barely any funding. much corruptions. every so ofteh, there'll be another scandal about it in the paper...], she seemed to just not understand a lot of things i was trying to teach her no matter how hard i tried to explain. the example that sticks out to me is the addition and subtraction of negative numbers, something simple like -3+4 or -5-(-12). she just didnt get it, and i could not understand for the life of me back then how she cannot see something so obvious. i even drew the number line for her and explained it in terms of moving along that. i'm sure the quadratic equation would be even more difficult for someone who just doesnt get it.
Looking someone in the eye is emotionally overwhelming so it's easier to connect with someone while not looking at them
i relate to that statement quite well. i used to not know that i was supposed to look someone in the eye when talking. nobody told me to, it wasnt a natural inclination, so i didnt do it. in 5th grade, a teacher was explaining the details of an award that i had won to me, and i have the dinstinct memory of her staring relentlessly at me while i looked all over the room. once in a while, i would look back at her, find that she's still staring at me, and let my eyes wander again. i remember wondering why she was trying so hard to maintain eye contact. i never once, until now, thought along the lines that she probably thought i was rude for looking everywhere else.
another thing, my parents never stressed eye contact. i never looked at them when they talked to me, both in conversational and disciplinary circumstances. they've never made a point about it either.
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Boy, I've been there more times than I can count. I not only try the number line, I do a thing with measuring cup of water and a zero line in the middle. I also tell a story about being short of money and having someone subtract the abscence. It still doesn't always work. Some of the real Math teachers teach them a rhyme, since route memorization is the only recourse when understanding fails.
i never once, until now, thought along the lines that she probably thought i was rude for looking everywhere else.
Neurotypical people use eye contact for a variety of messages. Here are the main ones, which can be combined. 1. Sincerity. I'm looking you in the eye so you know I'm telling you the truth. 2. Emphasis. I'm saying something really important. 3. To make sure the other person is paying attention. Teachers use this trick all the time. As a result, people who don't make eye contact at the right time are often seen as not paying attention or shifty and insincere. This is why people who are good at public speaking try to make eye contact with the audience.
When I deal with autistic people, I try to put them at ease by not forcing eye contact. Instead, I mimic a special sideways look that I noticed a lot of my autistic students make, with a slight head cock. Neurotypical people see it as friendly, and the associated expression says, "Are you putting me on?" As a result, it doesn't strike onlookers as odd, but it's more comfortable for the child I'm working with. They can make eye contact when and if they are ready.
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3. are things like eye contact, touching as a form of communication, and ability to read body language supposed to be natural to most people or do people usually consiously learn these things? i tried reading online guides on these, but i'm still a bit out of it...
People learn them. It's just that neurotypical people learn them quickly and relatively easily without putting any conscious effort into it, the same way they pick up language. Still, some people are way better at this than others. Some people only pick up the rudiments while others read all kinds of nuance.
Actors and teachers often delibrately study movement and body language to improve their craft. I delibrately project things like interest, excitement, and concern when I teach. I use open, confident body language that's puts people at ease, and never project weakness or fear. (Kids sense it and will make us of it). I also use all my tools (pitch, tone, volume, facial expression, and body language) when I "use my command voice. Since I generally project that I like them and want to help them, when I come in hard with my "teacher face," it generally stops them in their tracks. The contrast works as a shock tactic. In general, I work really hard never to send mixed messages to children and am very careful about what messages I am sending.
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I hear you on the Chinese culture issues. Several of my friends have had trouble with their families over not fitting expectations. I wish you luck with that. I know it can be hard when your identity doesn't match the person they want you to be.
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Empathy Quotient (EQ)
Your EQ score is 7
0-32 = You have a lower than average ability for understanding how other people feel and responding appropriately. most people with asperger syndrome or high-gh functioning autism score about 20. on average, most women score about 47 and most men about 42.
Your SQ score is 50
40-50 = you have an above average ability for analyzing and exploring a system. on average, women score about 23 and men score about 30. most people with asperger syndrome or high functioning autism score between 40-50.
and then...
on the autistic quotient test from: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
"In the first major trial using the test, the average score in the control group was 16.4. Eighty percent of those diagnosed with autism or a related disorder scored 32 or higher."
i scored 32.
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I wouldn't take any accurate assessment value from these tests, but it may indicate that seeking professional advice is advisable. If you have a counsellor at your school that might be a good first step.
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Ok, from an F perspective... I find touchy-ness difficult too. I can recoil from casual physical contact (i.e. as opposed to a more intentional contact. A hug is easy because there's a set, comfortable way of doing a hug. You know the purpose is to express affection. You have a warning, usually, that it's coming. And it usually comes in an appropriate moment. You can physically protect yourself from a hug without offending anyone if you don't want one.) My dislike of casual touch is partly culture (in New Zealand there is traditionally a great appreciation for space) and partly being an INFP I can get overloaded with empathised emotion and I need to isolate myself away from it in order to cope (my introvert side). Also being N I don't like my thoughts being interrupted by physical reality.
I'm intelligent and come across as ditzy at times, too. That is surely an N attribute.
I have an ESFJ sister. Your friend does sound like an introverted version of her. My sister can be lovely, but sometimes... I wish she wouldn't try to make me act the "proper" way. I really don't think she'll ever truly realise that I am the proper way for me. She definitely treats me like I'm inferior.
So glad our post and thread helped (as you can see s-planation wasn't originally from me *sad*).
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2. on not liking thoughts interrupted:
a. when around friends or when excited about sharing an idea [and i do become quite enthused about ideas], i'm incredibly extroverted. there are times however, when i slip into internalized thought during which i get this blank look on my face. people often ask me if i'm all right and tell me that i look sad when that happens. for the longest time, i wondered why they would think that way. apparently, to them, if i'm not i/bn a state of constant exuberance, something must be wrong with me and i must be upset about something, which isnt true. i also have a habit of not blinking when i'm deep in thought. people somehow find that amusing to the extreme.
b. my mother, who seems of the same personality as your sister, ESFJ, never understands that i need those "lost in thought" moments. i usually start blankly out the car window and think on the way to back from school. when she drives me home, she always tries to ask the most mundane questions like what i had for lunch in an effort to "get to know me better". as much as her intentions are probably good, i despise those question. most of the time, i get out of her daily inquisition by feigning sleepiness which starts her on another mundane lecture on the importance of sleep and how i dont take care of myself enough. sometimes, i would become irritated and tell her that things like what i ate for lunch are stupid and unimportant. why ask if you're probably not even going to remember it tomorrow? even if you do remember it, it's completely useless! she never understands, and i always hurt her feelings without realizing it...
another long post, but i guess you like those... i should be eating dinner right now... i suppose another lecture on how i need to maintain a consistent schedule and how i dont take care of myself is going to be waiting for me along with my dinner... sigh.
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and in the car you're so trapped. does it work if you try and lead the conversation. I have a game I play to help people enjoy interacting while keeping subject interesting for my little N brain. No one has been able to come up with a better name than "The Questions and Answers Game" which is boring to the extreme (any suggestions on a better name?). But it goes like this:
in a group or between two people, one person asks a question, the next person in the group answers the question, then the next person, and so it goes on until it comes back to the person who asked the question and they must answer it. So obviously the question must be general enough for all present to answer the question. After the person who asked the question has answered their own question the next person in the group must ask the group a question. This question is answered one by one by all. So it goes on until you run out of time.
Introverts and extroverts both have a chance to share (I've seen the shiest introvert I know to open up in front of a guy no less!). You can answer the way you see fit (I end up answering in extremely INFPish ways). You can ask whatever questions interest you and get away from the constantly mundane. Some questions have been things like, if you had a superpower what would you want and why?, what's your favourite holiday?, what is your favourite landscape (mountains, lakes, oceans, etc) and why?, do you visually see numbers? The questions are only limited by your imagination, and whether everyone can answer it. It's not a game of truth or dare, so you can opt out of answering an inappropriate or uncomfortable question.
The idea is, if your mother feels like she's had a moment of connection, maybe she'll be more willing to let you have your space and thought time later.
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If you buy a book, buy one written by an S person engaged to an N person. Therefore being S, your mum clues into it easily, but the author will be glowing about N personalities, being head over heals with one. Heh.
More seriously, there is a community for SJ types over at sjpersonality. I'm half lurking 'cause I come from a family of Traditionalists. You might want to see if they have advice that will give you inspiration. They don't seem adverse to lurkers.
I've found that while S types often don't understand me or get uncomfortable with me at times, they genuinely appreciate my N-ness.
Good luck.
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