I dearly wish I could get my hands on this story. I really, really do.
The coin toss at the diner is luckily something that can be taken pretty much in any direction you want. I read it as if both sides wished to see him in person before deciding what to do. A sort of final reconnaissance, if you will.
Totally with you on Harvey being threatening. In Half a life (it's been a while since I've read it, okay? Please don't smite me) he genuinely creeped me out when he tried being nice and greeting to Renee after he had her kidnapped. That is way scarier than just rambling on and on about the DEATH PENALTAH! It's kinda like how the Joker switches moods, except more definitely creepy IMO. Plus, it increases the tragedy somewhat, knowing how hard it would be for him to seek a normal life again; when everyone expects an angry rage-demon to just burst through when you least expect it, it seems unlikely for him to find someone to help him out of his ailment *Gilda-cough-cough*.
...as the surveillance cameras continue to follow his every move. Man, Harvey was REALLY busy in the space of just a few hours, wasn't he? I'm gonna guess that he had that equipment rigged up a looong time ago. What he was going to use it for, I have scarcely an idea.
That has to be one of the cleverest uses of biblical references I've ever seen. Harvey being a sort of metaphorical God (looking at Vic as a creature resembling him, the way he puts himself above the law (he is a criminal, after all), and how he sees it fit to test him) makes a lot of sense to me in this tale.
By the way, I saw Inception on DVD the other week. I seriously expected the Mad Hatter to just pop out of nowhere and start screaming and yelling about them stealing his thunder or tech or sumthin'. The Roddy McDowall version or the Peter Macnicol version, I'd take either one. (Oh, and I finally got me some Eye of the Beholder! Yey!)
I suppose it's a possibility, but I don't know if Chris Nolan would look at anything including the Teen Titans as proper source material. I don't know the guy's taste, but I somehow doubt it.
There's a lot of Joker's schemes that would make more sense as Two-Face-schemes in that movie, isn't there? It's the disguising-thing here, the two ferries with criminals and ordinary "innocent" civillians ready to blow, a mid-day bank robbery (a mafia-bank, non the less!), intimidating mob-bosses in a suicidal kind of way (threatening them with hand grenades? Why, hello there, Doug Moench's Eye of the Beholder sequel)... anything else?
I sincerely doubt it, mainly because I don't think Nolan has read or shown much interest in reading more than just a handful of Batman comics. This is a guy who thinks that the Penguin is someone who can't fit into his own "realistic" setting, for god's sake. Hell, the current version of the Penguin is pretty much only ONLY Bat-villain who could seamlessly fit into Nolan's universe!
Gotta agree with this. According to the interview with David Goyer that opens the BEGINS scriptbook, Nolan didn't know who Ra's al Ghul or the Scarecrow was. If he didn't know them, I certainly doubt he would know Cyborg...
...it's pretty possible that Nolan didn't know the comics at all before he signed on. It's now almost required that the people working on these movies say they're fans whether they are or not (and believe me, most people in the film industry still think of superheroes and comics in terms of the 1960's Batman TV series.) If Nolan liked comics at all, it was probably in the context of the few 'graphic novels' that 'hip' (read: cynical) 80's teenagers were told it was cool to like by Spin or Rolling Stone...
Yes. Yes, it is. I have to rewatch TDK Rises one of these days. I seriously don't know what to think of it. Why the hell did Nolan think it would be a good idea to mash Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns and No man's land together? I think it can be done, but good god, not in a single goddamn movie! And especially not the way it was handled there.
RISES is the only one of the Nolan movies I can watch; I've watched it twice now. I walked out of THE DARK KNIGHT thirty minutes in (the 'We can do it with RICO!' scene.) I liked BEGINS the first time I saw it but I find it unwatchable now.
May I ask why? You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I personally think that Begins is one of the best of the trilogy - and while I would definitely call Dark Knight overrated, you're the first that I've heard put it in walk-out-before-it's-done territory. As for DKR, I didn't hate it, but I would hardly call it the best of the trilogy.
Well, if you don't mind digital comics, it's still on sale for cheap! Dunno if that sale would carry over for where you are, though. And I'll also understand if you prefer real-life paper comics. I just wish that DC would give it a proper reprinting in a collection somewhere, because the paper and coloring quality of the original issue was sorely lacking. Really, print quality of most comics from the late 80's to the very early 90's sucked so hard, and ruined a lot of otherwise great comics from that era.
it's been a while since I've read it, okay? Please don't smite me
No smiting, I promise! I don't hate Half a Life, it's just... my feelings are very conflicted, that's all. And yeah, his wild mood swings were one of the best things about that version of Two-Face, I'm right there with you. Harvey should definitely fluctuate between rage and calm friendliness more often.
One of my biggest problems with Inception (aside from the fact that I saw every plot beat coming a mile away) was how it didn't take its own advice: "you musn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." For a movie about the mind-bending nature of dreams, it was all far too mundane and drab. A tripped out Mad Hatter sequence or a wild Freddy Krueger would have been damn welcome, I tell you what.
(Oh, and I finally got me some Eye of the Beholder! Yey!)
HUZZAH, awesome! I mean, right there, you can see what I mean about shitty printing and coloring quality from that era ruining otherwise-great stories, but even still, YAY!
Oh, don't worry about the printing quality. It was the Two-Face and the Riddler collection for Batman Forever, and despite a few very glaring coloring flaws in the other stories, I love the look and the colors of that particular epos.
And since we're on the subject matter: Yes, doctor Klemper is in himself a problem. I think wo_meimei described him as offensive to people with DID, and even I was a bit pissed off about the way it's presented here. Like with every character, I think there is potential to make him work both as a character and within that context, not to mention just how frustrating someone like him would be, but he needs some serious reworking. That is, if anyone ever directly mention EotB again. And while I'm on dr. Klemper, I think Harvey killing him would be better if it was described a little more in a Raskolnikov-ish manner. A bit of Crime and Punsihment thrown into the mix wouldn't hurt. Plus, you could probably do the same thing JMS does here, with the other voice subtly persuading the good voice. It could work. Otherwise:
Correction: That story wasn't about people with DID in the slightest, so I kind of wonder why I wrote that. That said, it is kind of muddled in that tale. For one thing, Klemper described himself as two distinct personalities, and these two had in some way interacted with each other. How? Why? From what I can gather (guessing from what's been said on this blog and wikipedia, that is) that doesn't happen in real life. It is described as one of the most unclarified areas in psychology, though, so who knows. Is Klemper a hebephrenic? Wikipedia states that there's somteimes some level of hallucinations and delusions in the mix. Does Klemper suffer from any of those? Also, if DID is more likely, could that possibly give Harvey some redemption concerning the murder of doc Klemper? I mean, what if the "other one" took control after the talk in the judge's chambers and carried out the murder, and Harvey never had any knowledge of it? From what I can see, it could work. But can Harvey communicate with the other side? Is he just talking to a voice in his head? Is that voice completely seperate from the other persona? Is the emerging of the other persona triggered by that voice? Or the coin? Is that voice the voice of the other one, after all? Is it just moodswings? Do these diagnoses have any relevance to him at all?
I am NOT very knowledgeable about this. Someday I'll read up on pshychology, but not now. Could someone enlighten me on this? Someone that isn't wikipedia? I do not wish to step on any toes, but I'm curious about this. Please don't crush me, whomever may be harmed by my ignorance!
And yes, Inception did make dreaming far, far too earthly. I don't recall a single solitary dream that wasn't somewhat far-out. Oh, and while I remember it, here's a link to a comparison between Anton Chigurh and Harvey Dent, in case you need some inspiration for when you finally write that one. http://whatistechnoagain.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/business-and-pleasure/
As a reading experience, that essay is just a wee bit too dry and academic for my tastes (which is why it's taken me so long to read and comment about it, although my attention span is not what it once was), but even still, holy SHIT, this is an amazing find! That someone would compare Harvey and Anton is no surprise, even if no one's done it so far from what I've seen. But the fact that someone analyzed it in this detail, and that they used "Eye of the Beholder" as the SOLE basis for discussing Two-Face, that is just mind-blowing! The author analyzes both characters in more detail than I would have expected from anyone else, and while I don't agree with every one of her points, she makes many excellent observations, many of which I'd never thought of before. I have my own thoughts about the Anton/Harvey comparison, but this essay will be an invaluable stepping stone to get me to write that post of my own! So yes, this was inspiring indeed, thank you!
The coin toss at the diner is luckily something that can be taken pretty much in any direction you want. I read it as if both sides wished to see him in person before deciding what to do. A sort of final reconnaissance, if you will.
Totally with you on Harvey being threatening. In Half a life (it's been a while since I've read it, okay? Please don't smite me) he genuinely creeped me out when he tried being nice and greeting to Renee after he had her kidnapped. That is way scarier than just rambling on and on about the DEATH PENALTAH! It's kinda like how the Joker switches moods, except more definitely creepy IMO. Plus, it increases the tragedy somewhat, knowing how hard it would be for him to seek a normal life again; when everyone expects an angry rage-demon to just burst through when you least expect it, it seems unlikely for him to find someone to help him out of his ailment *Gilda-cough-cough*.
...as the surveillance cameras continue to follow his every move. Man, Harvey was REALLY busy in the space of just a few hours, wasn't he?
I'm gonna guess that he had that equipment rigged up a looong time ago. What he was going to use it for, I have scarcely an idea.
That has to be one of the cleverest uses of biblical references I've ever seen. Harvey being a sort of metaphorical God (looking at Vic as a creature resembling him, the way he puts himself above the law (he is a criminal, after all), and how he sees it fit to test him) makes a lot of sense to me in this tale.
By the way, I saw Inception on DVD the other week. I seriously expected the Mad Hatter to just pop out of nowhere and start screaming and yelling about them stealing his thunder or tech or sumthin'. The Roddy McDowall version or the Peter Macnicol version, I'd take either one.
(Oh, and I finally got me some Eye of the Beholder! Yey!)
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It's a nice change of pace to watch Marion Cotillard and Tom Hardy in a good Christopher Nolan film, isn't it?
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There's a lot of Joker's schemes that would make more sense as Two-Face-schemes in that movie, isn't there? It's the disguising-thing here, the two ferries with criminals and ordinary "innocent" civillians ready to blow, a mid-day bank robbery (a mafia-bank, non the less!), intimidating mob-bosses in a suicidal kind of way (threatening them with hand grenades? Why, hello there, Doug Moench's Eye of the Beholder sequel)... anything else?
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...it's pretty possible that Nolan didn't know the comics at all before he signed on. It's now almost required that the people working on these movies say they're fans whether they are or not (and believe me, most people in the film industry still think of superheroes and comics in terms of the 1960's Batman TV series.) If Nolan liked comics at all, it was probably in the context of the few 'graphic novels' that 'hip' (read: cynical) 80's teenagers were told it was cool to like by Spin or Rolling Stone...
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I have to rewatch TDK Rises one of these days. I seriously don't know what to think of it.
Why the hell did Nolan think it would be a good idea to mash Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns and No man's land together? I think it can be done, but good god, not in a single goddamn movie! And especially not the way it was handled there.
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http://captphilonline.com/Destinies/Destinies_07_27_12.mp3
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it's been a while since I've read it, okay? Please don't smite me
No smiting, I promise! I don't hate Half a Life, it's just... my feelings are very conflicted, that's all. And yeah, his wild mood swings were one of the best things about that version of Two-Face, I'm right there with you. Harvey should definitely fluctuate between rage and calm friendliness more often.
One of my biggest problems with Inception (aside from the fact that I saw every plot beat coming a mile away) was how it didn't take its own advice: "you musn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." For a movie about the mind-bending nature of dreams, it was all far too mundane and drab. A tripped out Mad Hatter sequence or a wild Freddy Krueger would have been damn welcome, I tell you what.
(Oh, and I finally got me some Eye of the Beholder! Yey!)
HUZZAH, awesome! I mean, right there, you can see what I mean about shitty printing and coloring quality from that era ruining otherwise-great stories, but even still, YAY!
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And since we're on the subject matter:
Yes, doctor Klemper is in himself a problem. I think wo_meimei described him as offensive to people with DID, and even I was a bit pissed off about the way it's presented here. Like with every character, I think there is potential to make him work both as a character and within that context, not to mention just how frustrating someone like him would be, but he needs some serious reworking. That is, if anyone ever directly mention EotB again.
And while I'm on dr. Klemper, I think Harvey killing him would be better if it was described a little more in a Raskolnikov-ish manner. A bit of Crime and Punsihment thrown into the mix wouldn't hurt. Plus, you could probably do the same thing JMS does here, with the other voice subtly persuading the good voice. It could work.
Otherwise:
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That said, it is kind of muddled in that tale. For one thing, Klemper described himself as two distinct personalities, and these two had in some way interacted with each other. How? Why? From what I can gather (guessing from what's been said on this blog and wikipedia, that is) that doesn't happen in real life. It is described as one of the most unclarified areas in psychology, though, so who knows.
Is Klemper a hebephrenic? Wikipedia states that there's somteimes some level of hallucinations and delusions in the mix. Does Klemper suffer from any of those?
Also, if DID is more likely, could that possibly give Harvey some redemption concerning the murder of doc Klemper? I mean, what if the "other one" took control after the talk in the judge's chambers and carried out the murder, and Harvey never had any knowledge of it? From what I can see, it could work.
But can Harvey communicate with the other side? Is he just talking to a voice in his head? Is that voice completely seperate from the other persona? Is the emerging of the other persona triggered by that voice? Or the coin? Is that voice the voice of the other one, after all? Is it just moodswings? Do these diagnoses have any relevance to him at all?
I am NOT very knowledgeable about this. Someday I'll read up on pshychology, but not now. Could someone enlighten me on this? Someone that isn't wikipedia? I do not wish to step on any toes, but I'm curious about this. Please don't crush me, whomever may be harmed by my ignorance!
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Oh, and while I remember it, here's a link to a comparison between Anton Chigurh and Harvey Dent, in case you need some inspiration for when you finally write that one. http://whatistechnoagain.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/business-and-pleasure/
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