I was too numb to be nauseous. Admittedly, that was because I was completely incapable of engaging with Dumbledore's "suffering" on a sympathetic level. I felt a bit for Harry, but really, I was just too distant to care much about anything Dumbledore said or did at that point.
Harry, like all of the characters, doesn't really shine in this book. Now, I love the boy, and I'll always defend his crazy Slytherin actions and slide into amorality, but you're pretty much right. Harry's detective skills in this book are pretty paltry -- it's just that everyone else is suddenly acting like an obstructive idiot, so he seems better by comparison. JKR doesn't even allow Harry his typical arena for demonstrating his abilities, which is how well he keeps his head in a crisis. He leans on Sectumsempra instead of remembering to use fire against the Inferi. Typically Harry's your go-to guy in a crisis, and I was very disappointed that she made him make the sort of mistake he didn't even make in PS/SS.
What did he do to earn Dumbledore's faith? As always in this book, all he did was obey Dumbledore. Gee, what a wonderful virtue.
When I read that line the first time, I just rolled my eyes. I thought it was a cheap line that was only used so Dumbledore could act like he had any confidence in Harry's abilities. I know Harry is supposed to be this great and powerful wizard, but this book hardly showcases his abilities. If anything, it shows that Harry is an average wizard that takes credit for other wizard's work (i.e. the Prince's potion book.) He reminds me of Lockhart in this book, which isn't a good thing.
Another thing I thought of, was maybe Dumbledore used that line on Harry becaue he tought it would would make Harry feel better. If thats the case, its an even cheaper line.
I thought it was a cheap line that was only used so Dumbledore could act like he had any confidence in Harry's abilities.
Why did it have to be confidence in his abilities, specifically? I admit that I found the line rather cute, but have been really surrpised to see almost everyone online taking it as a vote of confidence in Harry's abilities and power -- "Oh look, he's passing the torch, Harry is the next Dumbledore you know, because he's just that powerful"; like you guys, I don't see the basis for this.
I thought on the first readthrough that when Dumbledore said he wasn't worried about getting out of the cave because he was with Harry, it was more a vote of confidence in Harry's determination, and his vows to get them both out of the cave. This instantly made sense to me because when Harry really wants something done, it gets done, one way or another. This is something that's been consistent since PS. It doesn't matter how it gets done, nor even what lengths he goes to to get it done, or even if his reasons behind wanting to do it are extremely stupid/nonexistence (ie, Sirius in the DoM); the fact remains is that it gets done, and usually he doesn't stop until it does get done. And he really wanted to get them out of that cave. I'd have faith in his determination, if nothing else.
Well, the line is a repetition of Dumbledore's line to Harry in the first few chapters, that Harry will be alright since he's with Dumbledore. So, it is passing the torch. Harry's now the protector and Dumbledore, acting as childlike as he did while drinking the potion, is the one who must be protected. Is it a vote of confidence, or truly just a reflection of their changed positions? I don't know, but it's not like Dumbledore acts as though their positions truly are reversed in the next few chapters, what with incapacitating Harry to keep him out of the game (hmm, can comparisons be made between what happens on the tower and what happened at Godric's Hollow?).
it was more a vote of confidence in Harry's determination, and his vows to get them both out of the cave.
But that is contigent on Harry's abilities. He has to Apparate them back. It's fine to say, "oh, Harry will find a way," but Apparation was pretty much the only way that would have gotten Dumbledore back in time, safely to the castle so that they had a chance to do something about the potion.
It doesn't matter how it gets done, nor even what lengths he goes to to get it done, or even if his reasons behind wanting to do it are extremely stupid/nonexistence (ie, Sirius in the DoM); the fact remains is that it gets done, and usually he doesn't stop until it does get done.
I agree. Sort of. Harry always comes through when he has to. I have always taken that as Harry performing well under pressure, a measure of his magical abilities. Especially since that's all it ever takes. Harry doesn't fail with one spell, and then come up with another, and then decide on an alternate plan. When he needs the world's most powerful Patronus he casts the world's most powerful Patronus. It's the only time we get to see him as a truly powerful wizard, and it's always because he has to be one. His determination, in my mind, is very important since it magnifies his powers. But they are inextricably related, so if we take away Harry abilties, determination really doesn't mean anything.
In the zonewoman_ironingSeptember 13 2005, 10:44:08 UTC
It doesn't matter how it gets done, nor even what lengths he goes to to get it done, or even if his reasons behind wanting to do it are extremely stupid/nonexistence (ie, Sirius in the DoM); the fact remains is that it gets done, and usually he doesn't stop until it does get done.
Yay! This is the whole point.
And just perhaps - no , what I'm really saying is, "And of course" - if Harry hadn't chucked the water over Dumbledore then Dumbledore wouldn't have revived and protected them both from the Inferi with his crazy lasso of fire. Harry did not draw water from the lake thoughtlessly. He did it fully aware of the danger. (God, it was the danger that proved it was what he had to do!): Harry knew, instinctively, the only way left to get water, because Voldemort had planned it so.
My apologies for the late reply, but all the same :)
But that is contigent on Harry's abilities...I have always taken that as Harry performing well under pressure, a measure of his magical abilities.
I see your point about how Harry's ability and determination are often related, but would argue that his ability hinges on his determination, is dependent on it, rather. Like you mentioned with the Patronus, the only time he was able to cast a full, powerful one against real dementors was when his whole heart was in it. And such is the case with him more often than not; usually his prior attempts at an ability or a spell are mediocre at best, until crunch time arrives and he really wants, or needs to do it; and then his powers come to the forefront.
The case of the Summoning Charm in GoF is an example that comes to mind -- he's terrible at casting it during class, until he really ends up needing to cast it. And then he has the Charms professor chatting him up and praising him for one of the best Summoning Charms he's ever seen. This similarly works in CoS, though not so much with magical abilities: for the most part, he coasts along on Hermione's attempts to solve the mystery, and the diary's information, until Hermione and Penelope are attacked, at which time the detective subplot of CoS kicks in full. Additionally: the wand-battle of wills that he and Voldemort held in GoF; I imagine holding his strength against Voldemort is an attestment not only to their brother cores, but also to Harry's abilities. Yet the only reason Priori Incantatum was cast on Voldemort's wand rather than Harry's was because of Harry's determination not to let Voldemort's spell reach his own wand. His determination is the driving force behind his abilities.
Which is why I kind of felt that if Dumbledore believed that Harry was determined enough, then this was akin to believing in his ability to Apparate. Someone put it to me a couple of weeks ago (in a marginally-related conversation) that it's not about magical knowledge so much as it is about power, and I think power often needs a driving force behind it. (After all, we're told that Cruciatus, and likely the other Unforgivables, are largely ineffective unless you can summon enough feeling.)
Harry, like all of the characters, doesn't really shine in this book. Now, I love the boy, and I'll always defend his crazy Slytherin actions and slide into amorality, but you're pretty much right. Harry's detective skills in this book are pretty paltry -- it's just that everyone else is suddenly acting like an obstructive idiot, so he seems better by comparison. JKR doesn't even allow Harry his typical arena for demonstrating his abilities, which is how well he keeps his head in a crisis. He leans on Sectumsempra instead of remembering to use fire against the Inferi. Typically Harry's your go-to guy in a crisis, and I was very disappointed that she made him make the sort of mistake he didn't even make in PS/SS.
What did he do to earn Dumbledore's faith? As always in this book, all he did was obey Dumbledore. Gee, what a wonderful virtue.
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Another thing I thought of, was maybe Dumbledore used that line on Harry becaue he tought it would would make Harry feel better. If thats the case, its an even cheaper line.
I think I just repeated what you said. Oh well.
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Why did it have to be confidence in his abilities, specifically? I admit that I found the line rather cute, but have been really surrpised to see almost everyone online taking it as a vote of confidence in Harry's abilities and power -- "Oh look, he's passing the torch, Harry is the next Dumbledore you know, because he's just that powerful"; like you guys, I don't see the basis for this.
I thought on the first readthrough that when Dumbledore said he wasn't worried about getting out of the cave because he was with Harry, it was more a vote of confidence in Harry's determination, and his vows to get them both out of the cave. This instantly made sense to me because when Harry really wants something done, it gets done, one way or another. This is something that's been consistent since PS. It doesn't matter how it gets done, nor even what lengths he goes to to get it done, or even if his reasons behind wanting to do it are extremely stupid/nonexistence (ie, Sirius in the DoM); the fact remains is that it gets done, and usually he doesn't stop until it does get done. And he really wanted to get them out of that cave. I'd have faith in his determination, if nothing else.
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Ack, typo! I meant back to Hogwarts/safety.
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it was more a vote of confidence in Harry's determination, and his vows to get them both out of the cave.
But that is contigent on Harry's abilities. He has to Apparate them back. It's fine to say, "oh, Harry will find a way," but Apparation was pretty much the only way that would have gotten Dumbledore back in time, safely to the castle so that they had a chance to do something about the potion.
It doesn't matter how it gets done, nor even what lengths he goes to to get it done, or even if his reasons behind wanting to do it are extremely stupid/nonexistence (ie, Sirius in the DoM); the fact remains is that it gets done, and usually he doesn't stop until it does get done.
I agree. Sort of. Harry always comes through when he has to. I have always taken that as Harry performing well under pressure, a measure of his magical abilities. Especially since that's all it ever takes. Harry doesn't fail with one spell, and then come up with another, and then decide on an alternate plan. When he needs the world's most powerful Patronus he casts the world's most powerful Patronus. It's the only time we get to see him as a truly powerful wizard, and it's always because he has to be one. His determination, in my mind, is very important since it magnifies his powers. But they are inextricably related, so if we take away Harry abilties, determination really doesn't mean anything.
Reply
Yay! This is the whole point.
And just perhaps - no , what I'm really saying is, "And of course" - if Harry hadn't chucked the water over Dumbledore then Dumbledore wouldn't have revived and protected them both from the Inferi with his crazy lasso of fire. Harry did not draw water from the lake thoughtlessly. He did it fully aware of the danger. (God, it was the danger that proved it was what he had to do!): Harry knew, instinctively, the only way left to get water, because Voldemort had planned it so.
Reply
But that is contigent on Harry's abilities...I have always taken that as Harry performing well under pressure, a measure of his magical abilities.
I see your point about how Harry's ability and determination are often related, but would argue that his ability hinges on his determination, is dependent on it, rather. Like you mentioned with the Patronus, the only time he was able to cast a full, powerful one against real dementors was when his whole heart was in it. And such is the case with him more often than not; usually his prior attempts at an ability or a spell are mediocre at best, until crunch time arrives and he really wants, or needs to do it; and then his powers come to the forefront.
The case of the Summoning Charm in GoF is an example that comes to mind -- he's terrible at casting it during class, until he really ends up needing to cast it. And then he has the Charms professor chatting him up and praising him for one of the best Summoning Charms he's ever seen. This similarly works in CoS, though not so much with magical abilities: for the most part, he coasts along on Hermione's attempts to solve the mystery, and the diary's information, until Hermione and Penelope are attacked, at which time the detective subplot of CoS kicks in full. Additionally: the wand-battle of wills that he and Voldemort held in GoF; I imagine holding his strength against Voldemort is an attestment not only to their brother cores, but also to Harry's abilities. Yet the only reason Priori Incantatum was cast on Voldemort's wand rather than Harry's was because of Harry's determination not to let Voldemort's spell reach his own wand. His determination is the driving force behind his abilities.
Which is why I kind of felt that if Dumbledore believed that Harry was determined enough, then this was akin to believing in his ability to Apparate. Someone put it to me a couple of weeks ago (in a marginally-related conversation) that it's not about magical knowledge so much as it is about power, and I think power often needs a driving force behind it. (After all, we're told that Cruciatus, and likely the other Unforgivables, are largely ineffective unless you can summon enough feeling.)
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