Chapter 24 - Sectumsempra

[cheeringcharm]

Harry tells Ron and Hermione about the horcruxes during charms. Ron is so astounded that he makes it snow which leads to the first time JKR uses a non-aggressive adverb in describing Hermione talking to Ron. SCORE! Of course, Lavender can tell that Hermione is talking "patiently" instead of snapping, berating, or otherwise belittling Ron and she

Comments

[cadesama]

You know, Harry wouldn't have to rely on the Prince's spell to prevent eavesdropping if the Order had decided to train him up on some spells that might be helpful to a Chosen One.

"Ron looked immensely guilty and turned his back on her." -- Emphasis mine. I never really sympathized with Lavender before this moment when Ron is acting like an utter cad. Doesn't help that Ron was terrible to her the whole book. Argh, sorry, this whole scene sums up why I dislike the treatment of romance in this book. Everyone is just so petty and caught up with what they want, never mind who else might get hurt.

So if Rosemerta Imperiused Katie, that means you can cast Imperius while under Imperius? You think there'd be a crazy feedback reaction, or at least problems from a mindless zombie creating a mindless zombie.

Did anyone actually care about Quidditch in this book? I've actually enjoyed it a lot in the past, but it seemed like the book itself didn't care this time around. And as much as I'd like to attribute that to Harry growing up and focusing on adult concerns, I think it's just JKR being sick of it.

Ah, Sectumsempra. Now that's a curse. Is it a sign of Snape's loyalty to the Order that the DEs at the DoM never even came close to using it?

Do you think a Horcrux might be hidden in the RoR store room? Why else highlight the number of items there? I suppose it's just a way to sneak the Vanishing Cabinet back in, but that seems like a clue meant for the readers instead of Harry. Which I wouldn't put past JKR, given the Tonks red herring. Also, "thousands of books, no doubt banned" does not make Hogwarts impress me as an academic institution.

While a tiny bit of me cheered at Ginny's Quidditch comments -- I've hated Hermione's hypocritical opinion of Quidditch since OotP -- no one comes off well in this scene. Hermione is too busy trying to prove that's she's right to actually focus on the real issue (ie, that Harry nearly killed someone). Ginny is stabbing a friend in the back, hitting below the belt, for the sake of her crush, and missing the point (ie, that Harry nearly killed someone). Harry, who actually gets the point, is too busy defending himself and gushing over Ginny to actually say anything relevant to the point. This is really one of those scenes that makes me wonder why these folks are the good guys.

[muggle_prof]

"Ron looked immensely guilty and turned his back on her." -- Emphasis mine. I never really sympathized with Lavender before this moment when Ron is acting like an utter cad. Doesn't help that Ron was terrible to her the whole book

So glad to hear you say that, because I really felt for poor Lavender here. Ron misuses her and treats her badly and he then doesn't even have to feel guilty for dumping her, because for one brief moment she comes to her senses and dumps him (but then she goes back to being a lovesick puppy.)

Did anyone actually care about Quidditch in this book? I've actually enjoyed it a lot in the past, but it seemed like the book itself didn't care this time around.
I've never much cared for it actually, but JKR's heart was definitely not in it this time around, because when she wants to she can create exciting sports scenes. I'm still trying to figure out how Gryffindor lost to Hufflepuff by about 300 points, but is still ahead of them in the standings, but "maths" as they say.

Do you think a Horcrux might be hidden in the RoR store room?
speculation centers on the tiara as a possible Ravenclaw item ....

Quidditch

[house_elf_44]

...JKR's heart was definitely not in it this time around

Yes, another lovely kick in the gut from The Interview was hearing Jo say that Quidditch has been the bane of her life in the Harry Potter books. Very nice.

Re: Quidditch

[cadesama]

Yeah. Why invent something and make it integral to your books if you don't even like it?

Re: Quidditch

[house_elf_44]

I think it's very rude to belittle anything your fans are excited about. Come to think of it, that covers many things in The Interview.

Re: Quidditch

[merrymelody]

Not to mention how limited the results always are: it doesn't take a genius to work out that Gryffindor will win nine times out of ten. Wow, exciting.

Re: Quidditch

[house_elf_44]

Yeah, I saw that, and don't think she should have told us that either. It still doesn't tell us whether the school will be closed, or open but Harry won't be playing Quidditch.

[cadesama]

So glad to hear you say that, because I really felt for poor Lavender here. Ron misuses her and treats her badly and he then doesn't even have to feel guilty for dumping her, because for one brief moment she comes to her senses and dumps him (but then she goes back to being a lovesick puppy.)

I've always had a secret soft spot for the characters that JKR derides and pushes aside, like Lavender and Parvati (and Fleur and Zacharias), when we don't every really know them. It really annoys me that the characters can treat others so badly and get away with it because, "they were shallow anyway."

speculation centers on the tiara as a possible Ravenclaw item ...

Hmm. I suppose that's as good as anything. I don't really want Ravenclaw's item to be coded so obviously female, though.

[cadesama]

I really don't know what she meant to do with Fleur. Were we honestly supposed to be sympathizing with her all book, when Ginny's nasty jokes about Fleur were part of what draws our hero to her in a romantic sense? JKR, imho, wrote the end scene with Fleur actually loving Bill as some kind of "revelation" and seemed to paint Ginny, Molly, and Hermione's treatment of Fleur as justified for most of the book. I've like Fleur since GoF, so I tend to think of how JKR treats her in terms of nearly two books of the main female characters bad mouthing her, instead of in terms of the two pages where Molly comes to her senses.

I'd probably be upset if my brother was engaged to a silly, elitist, narcissist too -- but we've known since GoF that Fleur isn't so shallow. She's a very competent, brave witch who cares deeply about her family. So, I don't know why it seemed like JKR thought we had forgotten about the second part.

[madderbrad]

So if Rosemerta Imperiused Katie, that means you can cast Imperius while under Imperius? You think there'd be a crazy feedback reaction, or at least problems from a mindless zombie creating a mindless zombie.

Nice! I never thought there was a problem, though; because (a) I didn't see any problem with an Imperius spell being transitive in its application, and (b) I'd assumed that the person casting the Imperius on Rosemerta likewise cast it on Katie, once she was manoeuvred into the right spot. In any case, no 'crazy feedback', since there's no cycle or loop in the chain of spells - Katie wasn't casting Imperius in turn.

Did anyone actually care about Quidditch in this book?

No. I felt I was supposed to, but did not. Anticlimatic, really, how Harry was knocked out of one match and wasn't present for the final. But it served to grant Ginny her "hard, blazing look" which attracted Harry (and his monster) so at the right time.

Ah, Sectumsempra. Now that's a curse. Is it a sign of Snape's loyalty to the Order that the DEs at the DoM never even came close to using it?

Magic in JKR's world really bugs me sometimes, how often if you're in a predicament it's just a case of finding some obtuse spell out of a dusty tome to utter and save the day. In HBP we have the unheard of Felix Felices potion - which every Auror near you should have in his utility belt ready for a crisis - and now this spell of Snape's. The whole thing seemed a bit contrived to me, Harry could have used oodles of other spells I would have thought.

This is really one of those scenes that makes me wonder why these folks are the good guys.

Well, they're not perfect, but they're gooder than the not-so-good guys?

[cadesama]

(b) I'd assumed that the person casting the Imperius on Rosemerta likewise cast it on Katie, once she was manoeuvred into the right spot

Oh, by the time we found out about Rosemerta I'd forgotten about Katie actually being under Imperius herself, so I just assumed it was all by Draco. Looking at it here, it seems like it was probably Rosemerta. Which is . . . odd, since you usually don't suppose mind-controlled zombies retain declarative knowledge. Although, I suppose we could get into a deeply nerdy conversation about whether spell casting is declarative knowledge or procedural knowledge, when you take into consideration that silent casting seems to rely on the cast channeling the emotions and power necessary for the spell without thinking about it very much.

The whole thing seemed a bit contrived to me, Harry could have used oodles of other spells I would have thought.

Harry's use of the spell is kinda interesting to me. It seems to be reflecting his arc of darkening through the series. He wants to kill Sirius in PoA, he fantasizes about torturing Snape in GoF, he actually tortures Bella in OotP, and then he rips Draco's face off in HBP. As the books go on Harry, rather than becoming firmer in his moral resolve, is actually becoming more and more casual about the use of violence. So, while Harry could have used a different spell here (and against the Inferi), I think it actually says something about him that he doesn't.

The DEs though? Not so much. Same with Ginny and her ubiquitous Bat-Bogey Hex. I don't like that the spells which should have been known to characters who grew up in the universe are as new to them as they are to Harry. Lack of planning on JKR's part.

Well, they're not perfect, but they're gooder than the not-so-good guys?

Meh. Depends on the set of people we're talking about. The kids are better than the Death Eaters, and better than Voldemort. The Order is marginally better than the DEs. Are the "good" kids better than the bad ones though? Crabbe and Goyle show a lot of loyalty and devotion to Draco, far more than Ron and Hermione display in this book. When Draco is injured, Pansy flees to his side. Hermione didn't do that for either boy, and Ron clearly doesn't care that he hurt Lavender. What Draco does in this book isn't a heck of a lot worse than what Ginny did in CoS. How much free will did he have? He was under duress, threatened with death and probably the deaths of his parents. A confession under those circumstances wouldn't hold up in court, so how much of his actions can you truly prosecute him for? Obviously he should have come to Dumbledore and asked for help, but Dumbledore hasn't been the slightest bit interested in making sure his door is open to the Slytherin students. Draco had options, but he didn't think he did, which was pretty much just as bad as not having them at all for him.

But, big actions of nearly getting everyone in the school killed aside, I think that you shouldn't judge the characters off of their Big Moments alone. How good a person is Snape if he saves the world one in a while, but is an utter bastard every other day of the year? Not that good, imho. It's gotta be both. And I think the good guys really fall down when it comes to day to day goodness this chapter.

[madderbrad]

I don't like that the spells which should have been known to characters who grew up in the universe are as new to them as they are to Harry.

EXACTLY!!!! Thanks, great to read someone summarising my feelings so much better!

Crabbe and Goyle show a lot of loyalty and devotion to Draco, far more than Ron and Hermione display in this book.

Ah, but Crabbe and Goyle are unthinking zombies, just slavishly following Draco around, not *actively* trying to go out of their way to help him at all. Whereas Hermione and Ron have always helped Harry, they've *partcipated* in assisting him to solve all his problems, they've .... hold on ... oh. HBP. Right. Sorry.

You have the right of it after all.

Sigh.

[pilly2009]

Crabbe and Goyle show a lot of loyalty and devotion to Draco, far more than Ron and Hermione display in this book.

I think these things really have to be judged within a similar context. Crabbe and Goyle's loyalty was significant throughout the year in which Draco was suffering his emotional/personality crisis. But as was Ron and Hermione's during the year in which Harry was suffering his. Whereas they are currently having more problems (um, if romantic problems are to be taken seriously) during this year, the situation turns so that it's his loyalty to them that's significant.

When Draco is injured, Pansy flees to his side. Hermione didn't do that for either boy

Harry in PoA (where she cried when he fell off his broom, and both she and Ron spent the entire weekend with him in the hospital wing) and Ron in HBP.

Okay, now that I've gotten the nitpickiness out of my system, that's an interesting point that was made about Ginny and Draco (I love how those two keep getting paralleled in fandom post-HBP! Hell, think it could be intentional?). You're right; in a way, they both might as well have been under Imperius, for all the choice they had.

The only thing I can think of to counter this is that Draco's straits were relatively self-inflicted, whereas Ginny's were non-existent. Of course, the threat of death to yourself and your whole family hanging over certainly influences any final choices you will have to make, but Ginny didn't even have this choice. It's arguable that had she been given the choice, knowing how virtuous a character she is supposed to be, she would have preferred death over injuring the students she did. Um, to explain further, Draco was being forced on pain of death to murder someone he didn't care about in the least, and in doing so ended up nearly killing people whom he possibly felt guilty over, but didn't really care about. Given the choice between said people and his family, it was clear who was going to win out.

Whereas with Ginny, there wasn't even this marginal choice: she was being used to attack people like her brother's best friend and her other brother's girlfriend...directly hurting her family, in other words. If this choice would have existed at all in this situation, it would probably have been between herself and her family, which is why I'm assuming that her family would have won out over herself.

[cadesama]

Crabbe and Goyle's loyalty was significant throughout the year in which Draco was suffering his emotional/personality crisis. But as was Ron and Hermione's during the year in which Harry was suffering his.

True, but I'm not so much trying to demonstrate the moral superiority of the Slytherin kids as the equability. It probably is overstating it to say that Draco's friends are more loyal than Harry's. I do think they are no less loyal, though.

Of course, the threat of death to yourself and your whole family hanging over certainly influences any final choices you will have to make, but Ginny didn't even have this choice.

Actually, we don't know for sure that she didn't have a choice. CoS never adequately explains why Ginny stole the diary back from Harry. Riddle says that Ginny stole it back because she was afraid that Riddle was going to spill all of her secrets to Harry. Unfortunately, he's an unreliable narrator. On the other hand, Riddle gladly takes credit to everything else terrible he's done, and seems genuinely annoyed that Ginny took the diary back -- so, that may be when Ginny did make a choice in the matter. She apparently chose that keeping her secrets from Harry was more important than the lives of students. Which, actually, puts her on a lower level than Draco. She's much younger, so she may not have understood the ramifications, one can argue. But she knew enough to throw it away in the first place. Makes me think that perhaps the Weasleys weren't misguided for their stern reaction at the end of the novel.